Ep.70 - The Manosphere

Get yourself a beer and the roasted flesh of the cutest animal you can find, then buckle up and tune in for the manliest UK-based leftist Christian podcast ever! This week the team take on The Manosphere. Can they stare into the abyss and still come back? Will they suddenly start getting defensive whenever anyone mentions Joe Rogan? Only time (about 1hr 15mins!) will tell!

Transcript

Please note, this transcript may not be completely accurate.
 
Hello, and welcome to Bread and Rosaries, the manliest UK based Christian podcast. I'm Ben Molyneux-Hetherington, and I'm joined today by my two dude bros, Adam Spiers and Jonny Bell, who have taken today time out of their usual schedule of red meat, weightlifting, and slamming pussy to join me. I don't know. It's funny. How do we feel about the rebrand?
 
You cannot say that. That is unacceptable. I was like, okay. Okay. Yeah.
 
Do you know what? It said making deals originally, and then I thought it was too funny not to, 

Making deals. There was a there's an old YouTube video of, I can't remember which YouTube it was, but they're quite famous. And they've got, like, this manliest video ever. And one of them is just like the screen goes blank, and then it just says, wrestle like a bear at night. And I just absolutely love that. 

Okay. Wrestling a bear at night. Yeah. 

The real issue of what you were saying there is that you actually misgendered me.
 
 So, I I did a dude bro as a as a universal term. I decided, like You just You decided. Alright. Do you get to make the decisions about gender? Gender.
 
 Right. Okay. This is this is the best of masculinity. Anyone can be a dude bro now. At least when I, like, off, like, off camera before we started said that it was the two manliest men and Johnny.
 
 At least I was doing that Yeah. Yeah. So that I didn't misgender Jonny through Ben. Uh-huh. Transphobe.
 
 Cancelled. Yeah. Yeah. Adam, I'm desperate for us to be cancelled. I would love a book deal.
 
 I'd love to go on talk. I'd like Yeah. I know. I was gonna say, you've got a lot of people listening to be cancelled. I was gonna say you're gonna be important for that to happen.
 
 Yeah. Well yeah. But also that I think getting cancelled. now is a good career option. Like, I mean, we've discussed before that, like, we could probably make a fair bit of cash during a turn to the right. Like, yeah.
 
 I used to be a Christian leftist. And then I saw the light. Yeah. Yeah. So the light.
 
 I mean, I I I can see you as a Lawrence Fox type, to be honest, Ben. Do I have to get divorced first? Right? Because, like, his like, the whole vibe of him is so deeply divorced. Right?
 
 And, like, there are loads of people that are divorced with a lowercase d. He is chronically divorced. Yeah. Yeah. Like You know?
 
 Have you heard his music? His his No. For music. It's incredible. It's it's like he's trying to be this, like, sort of very kind of dower singer songwriter type, and the whole thing is just this really awful monotonous drivel about how, you know, they're cancelling conversation and all that kind of thing.
 
 It's it's Yeah. Bloody awful. Any good, yeah, there's one he does live. Because the problem with Elon Fox, right, is that he wasn't even that, like, bigger deal or famous before we before we got cancelled. You know?
 
 It was the cancelling that made him famous. Yeah. No. Because he was shite. Like, all he is is all he's got is being part of the Fox dynasty.
 
 Which is not even one of the top two dynasties. They have put something in the water. They seek a cure for the conversation. They stole a martial arts That's a sleep bath. Decision.
 
 I know. And the first to fall was laughter just to quell the unoffended. They seek to murder your opinion. They seek to murder your opinion is such a lie. I did.
 
 On the age of reason. Oh, it it just Replaced by It's like a sort of guy wearing a badge buns, got a guitar at a party, and he's just like must just and I delete and ends up just, you know, playing the chords to Wonderwall over and over again. This ain't even Wonderwall though. This is No. It's not.
 
 This is This is It's an attempt to do, Leonard Cohen, really. Yeah. So It is. To shit Leonard Cohen. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Because it's because it's not even quite Bob Dylan. It's definitely Leonard Cohen. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Like like a poor man's Leonard Cohen. So YouTube. We're we're all on YouTube. Out of interest, have a look down down the kind of, recommended videos on the on the right hand side.
 
 What what have we got there? The thing is I have a YouTube account that I use a lot Uh-huh. For, like, uploading all sorts and so on. And mine is mostly stuff related to what I have watched before. Yeah.
 
 Same. I've got some stuff about Judith Butler, how to make a moss bag, and Steven's Here's what I have. A Ben, is yours is yours on an account? Are you logged in, or is it like I am logged in as bread and rosaries on this. Could be anything.
 
 So suggestion What I do is upload on that. So Ricky Gervais destroys woke culture by an account called Wokebase. I've never seen strength like this before. There is a man with his top off, I think, doing some sort of, like, weightlifting stuff. Lawrence Fox in discussion with father Calvin Robinson.
 
 Oh, come on. And Two heroes of the podcast. But the dark the dark truth, this is who really rules The UK. And there's a photo of Liz Truss on it. Lizards.
 
 It's lizards. Well, as I said, I'll admit it. This is Yes. But it's probably not Liz Truss. That's I think it's quite a clear line.
 
 So, yeah, that is I can tell you who does actually control The UK and most of the governments. Is it is it gays with their with their woke agenda? No. It's my dog, Bagel. He's he's the origin of fascism.
 
 Bad dog. He wouldn't let you think that. That is a potentially useful way into our main topic, which is talk a little bit about masculinity and the and the manosphere, as it's called. We touch And look at that. That is like the worst moment for that change.
 
 You guys, oh, that's a potentially helpful way. At any point in this Seamless. You could have said, oh, that that is a a really good in for our conversation today. And instead, you waited for bloody bagel to be talked about. Okay.
 
 So here's the first hint. Oh, you're just gonna cut that bit instead? Well, yeah. Yeah. Is that sometimes I forgot I forgot that I don't edit this anymore and can't just edit myself back into making sense.
 
 So I I put in what in my head, a clear edit points, and then you go and edit it and do not follow the edit points that I thought I've been really clear about. No. Well, we we have very different editing styles. I like to keep as much in as possible. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. You like to make us look good. Okay. Well, maybe that's not a good I I was gonna talk about the the fact that the YouTube algorithm loves to push all this weird masculine content. But, yeah, that is what we're gonna talk a little bit today.
 
 We touched on it or you guys talked to that. It wasn't here last week a little bit, and we thought it'd be good to follow-up. But before we get on to that, we will start as always with what else is on my mind grapes? What else is on my mind grapes? Johnny, I think all of us have got to say with you on the mind grapes, but you were talking about it, earlier.
 
 So what is on your mind grapes? The Quakers. No. Not actually the Quakers. The Quaker Meeting House in London.
 
 The Quakers. Yeah. Yeah. Just the Quakers and the disgusting thing of meeting in silence and expecting to feel the presence of God. No.
 
 It's, yeah, about people being arrested for holding, you know, a a group for planning a protest at a Quaker meeting house and being arrested or rather having the Quaker meeting house kind of Were they even planning the protest? Because, I mean, like, people were arrested who turn like, turned up and had never been to anything before. Just I thought it was just like an info thing. Some of the articles I read on it did say that they were planning it, but that could also be mis- or disinformation. I mean, either way, like Yeah.
 
 You know? Absolutely. Arresting them for planning it in the first place is bad enough. But, like, arresting people who just turned up to their first ever thing because they were curious and, like, had their house raided when they were in the Yeah. Jail cell, had all their, like, technology taken, it's it's scary.
 
 I think I've seen a lot of people call this fascism. It's not fascism. I think it's really important to recognize this is not fascism. This is neoliberalism. This is how neoliberalism behaves as well.
 
 Fascism is a lot more open about this stuff, but I think Yes. When we label this stuff fascism, we actually downplay the atrocities, the inherent nastiness of neoliberalism as well, and capitalism as a whole. And I think that's a really important thing to to recognize. And it is, of course you know, there is a causal relationship there as well. It is how one way of sliding into fascism too, but it isn't fascism itself.
 
 No. And it was interesting that so many news outlets reported on it, probably because it was a Quaker meeting house that essentially got raided. And if it were someone's home or, you know, village hall or whatever and that got raided. I don't think it would have been picked up in quite the same way. And I do think there's an element of sort of class in there, because it's quite a middle class thing to do to go to church, particularly Quaker meeting houses.
 
 And it's a white middle class thing predominantly. And I think that's why people are shocked. It's it's, oh, the spaces that we go to has been raided. It's it's that kind of reaction, I think. I think that's true.
 
 I think there's there's definitely an element of classism in there. It's it's that weird tension, some of it, I think, between this classist element and and using your privilege to draw attention to something awful that's going on. It's it's really tricky to get that right. Yeah. And it was a bit like, with some of the environmental, protests and things or climate change protests, which were a lot of sort of white middle class people, and then going, oh, the police weren't that bad, when they were being arrested and things because of who they were.
 
 Yeah. I mean, it's it's easy to think the police aren't that bad when, you know, they're just putting you some handcuffs and taking off and then letting you go again rather than, like, shoot you in the head or Yeah. Or brutalize you in other ways. You. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. That was a big thing with with Extinction Rebellion was, you know, the handbook that they wrote some years ago, obviously, at this point, that was saying, well, prison, you know, obviously, it's not nice, but it can be quite a a helpful thing to allow you to meditate and stuff. And it's like I know. Yeah. If you're not sitting in a cell with, like, a broken jaw, you know.
 
 Yeah. Or hearing people shouting, banging things, fighting. Like I think interestingly will be, you know, there were, 10 people arrested, for mute demand that are out on bail. So they are possibly still gonna face criminal charges. And as you kind of alluded to, the outrage has been that they're arrested at the, Quaker Meeting House.
 
 It'll be interesting to see if there's that same level of outrage or interest when when they do get charged properly, when they are looking at, you know, potentially able to go to court. We don't know whether they will actually go through that process or or, yeah, what happens next, whether people will still be interested in in defending these people once the kind of shock of it being a meeting house has has subsided. Absolutely. And it's that huge level of force that governments like ours are putting against climate protesters, is is deeply concerning. It's And anti apartheid anti genocide protesters.
 
 Yeah. Indeed. It is very worrying. But that's not what is the issue in these articles. It's the fact that it was a Quaker meeting house that had been raided.
 
 You know? And it's also like with all the protests, I think I said this last time, actually, that people get so upset and butt hurt of what the protesters are doing rather than what they're protesting about, which I always find really interesting. It's like but, no, they're trying to get the attention of everyone to say that things are really awful and things need to change. Just because you're mildly inconvenienced doesn't mean you know? It's yeah.
 
 Very frustrating. It's incredible how quickly people defend the police, defend do not see, refuse to see, and perhaps even think it's a good thing that our civil liberties are being eroded. And okay. In in the last four years at this point, we have had the Covert Human Intelligence Sources Criminal Conduct Act of 02/2001, the Counterterrorism and Sentencing Act of 2021, the Overseas Operations Service Personnel and Veterans Act 2021, the Nationality and Borders Act 2022, the Police Crime Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, the Illegal Migration Act 2023, and the Public Order Act of 2023, all of which eroded, some of them greatly, are civil liberties. And, a, people just don't seem to care about it and as I say, think it's a good thing.
 
 But, b, this Labour government, I mean, they've they've taken they've rolled back a couple of minor minor elements of a couple of these, but actually, overall, they're not only not repealing them, they're adding to them. They're giving the police more powers. That's what Keir Starmer has told me to do. You know, we are going to find ourselves, unless we fight this stuff, not being able to have any voice really at all that disagrees with something that the government deems important that everyone agrees with. And it's it's a it's a creeping thing.
 
 It's a creeping tide. It's very, very dangerous. And it and it leads to, you know, reform and Farage and that kind of thing. Yeah. Indeed.
 
 And I think it comes from a place. Because I think with with all these things and the far right politics that are happening, they touch on a nerve that is real and people are struggling with, but, obviously, direct it and going, oh, it's because of those people over there, not me. So if you're finding things difficult, if you're finding things tough and you're feeling scared and there's all this fear being whipped up, It makes sense if you think the police are there gonna be there to protect you. Yes. Giving them more powers.
 
 Yes. That's gonna make me feel more safe. And, obviously, that's not actually going to help. It's not going to be protecting you. It's going to be protecting other people.
 
 Well and it also actually so there's at least two of these acts. So the covert human intelligence sources criminal conduct act and the overseas operations Act. Both of those actually made it harder to hold those acting on behalf of the state to account. So, for example, the covert human intelligence sources act provides immunity for undercover agents and law enforcement for any criminal conduct that they do when they're in that role. Right?
 
 So they can break the law and not be held accountable for it. So if they Yeah. Kick the shit out of you or something, well, they would, you know, they would do it They're undercover. They're doing it That's fine. Protect the people.
 
 Yeah. Same with the Overseas Operations Act. You know, it's designed to this is particularly with, occupied Ireland in mind. It was designed to shield soldiers from what they claim are vexatious legal claims, I. E.
 
 If you've murdered someone in the occupation of of Ireland as a British soldier, you can't be held accountable for it. All of this is really, really very dangerous. It is. There's a book by an academic called, Mark Neocleus, about the police. I'm trying to remember the the title of it, see if I can find it.
 
 Critical theory of police power. It's it's an academic book, so it's quite dense, but it's an absolutely fascinating book. And one of the things that he demonstrates very clearly in that is that once you introduce these laws and give more and more powers to the police, it's very, very hard to roll back on them. So even if you get to the point where you realize that this is really terrible, this is not working the way we intend it to, It's gonna be a lot harder to to get rid of them again. And one of the ways you could see that, it's not quite the police as such, but is indefinite sentences, for people who I think it's there there's still couple of thousand, I think, people in prison Yeah.
 
 Serving People still affect the sentences. Yeah. Some of them for stuff like Nick and a bike. You know? Indefinite sentence.
 
 People been in prison for decades, and people people are taking their own lives because they don't see any way out of this. Yeah. It's terrible. And everyone knows it's terrible, but they still aren't getting rid of it. Why?
 
 Hi, folks. Adam in the editing booth here. Just to clarify, this was actually abolished in 2012, but it wasn't applied retrospectively. So thousands of people remain in prison. Now there was a little bit of legislation brought in in 2023 that released about 1,800 of those people, but the vast majority, as I say, still remain in prison.
 
 Well, there's no benefit to them. I think that's one of the biggest things because most of most policies and things that get made are reactionary. So they're a response to something because it's it's quite not always self serving, but there is an element of that. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Well, there's also, I think, a part of it where if they are seen to be softer on this, people are, like, especially with a sort of reactionary and authoritarian mindset, are going to react badly to this. They're going to see all of this government's a soft touch. It's like, well, no. Yes. They're they're being just rather than cruel.
 
 I don't even think that's soft stuff now. I'm I'm not even sure that being just I don't Well, no. That's Yeah. See it that way. I think people just want retribution.
 
 And if the government isn't offering retribution, what are they doing? They are soft soft Labour, woke, lefty liberals. Yeah. Absolutely. And, obviously, the element of, like, they believe that their electoral coalition is quite conservative socially in a lot of ways.
 
 There's a, you know, an effort to appeal to that kind of, yeah, socially conservative person. I I think the Labour Party are probably overestimating the extent to which they won the election as opposed to the Tories throwing it down the toilet. And they believe that how they did that was by, yeah, appealing to people with a more conservative mindset, and therefore, they're reluctant to do anything that might, yes, make them appear at all left of centre or indeed sometimes just centre. So, yeah, I think that is a big motivation. It is their belief that their voter coalition relies on social conservatives.
 
 And whilst I think social conservatives did make up a big chunk of the social of their, sorry, electoral coalition, I think, ultimately, that's not a sustainable model because it only works as long as it's a Tory party in crisis, which, you know, it continues to be, but it won't be forever. No. And that's why reform are doing you know, picking up traction because they're able to scoop up quite a lot of those more conservative views. And yeah. And the Lib Dems as well will will scoop up people that are more socially conservative.
 
 They've they've juddered to the right again, the Lib Dems. And so Labour is competing on some very congested ground. I'm always amazed that people think the Lib Dems are left wing. I just like, just look at their history. Look at how they were founded.
 
 Right? Look at their name, right, and try and understand what that actually means. They are not left wing. But they're liberals. They're left wing, aren't they?
 
 Yeah. And they're democrats. They're left wing. Yeah. Moving on before we just turn into crotchety leftists even more, let's talk about masculinity.
 
 What an exciting topic to talk about. Yeah. Very good. Johnny manly voice. Make the most, manly noise.
 
 I'm not going to degrade myself. Are you leaving the podcast? Is that what you're saying? I'm officially yeah. So, people might have seen in the news, it has been announced that the Netflix series adolescence, is now gonna be made available to all secondary school children, because it turns out the problem, of over a decade of cuts to schools, youth provision, social services, and general kind of fall in standard living and community life, can be solved by one Netflix TV show.
 
 So that is Thank goodness. We can just back up and go home now. I know. It is it's wonderful. Miraculous even.
 
 And, yeah, we we kinda touched on this last week, and it's opened up a lot of questions. Frankly, a lot of people who don't know shit about online culture, don't know anything about young people going, my goodness. It turns out there's some things happening on the Internet now. And, yeah, a lot of people who are framed as experts or worthy people to hear on this do not have the foggiest idea what they're going on about. Sure.
 
 And just That's not fair. That's not fair. For, like, every Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Every topic going. Let's be honest. Absolutely. And it's, yeah, particularly frustrating for me as someone who's worked with young people for a number of years and also has spent too much of his life online.
 
 This is this is like the nexus of experience for me where I'm going, no. You people have no idea what you're going on about. Johnny, you've actually seen the TV series, haven't you? Because neither I have now. Have?
 
 Yes. So I, after last time's episode, and also subsequently my sister said to watch it as well. So, yeah, my husband and I watched it. It was very good, quite upsetting. Didn't sleep very well after watching it.
 
 So, yeah, worth a watch. Thank you. And that was Johnny's review corner. A new part of the podcast will come with a theme for that. Profound.
 
 But for people who haven't seen it, or haven't heard much about it, Johnny, why don't you give us a bit of a a a what what are the themes it's hitting on? Why is it kinda capturing imagination? Well, yeah, it's the toss toxic masculinity stuff, particularly what a man should be, in inverse commas, and therefore, how women should be treated. In many ways, it makes explicit the idea that women are objects for men to use as they wish. That's that's a lot of the toxic masculinity stuff, but it also fills into fits into the stuff about incels of involuntary celibacy, where, you know, it it repeats the phrase in one of the episodes of eighty twenty, the idea that 80% of women are attracted to only 20% of men, and therefore, lots of men will be not able to have women and be involuntary celibate and things like that, and all these Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Quite strange I've always found incredible, like, as an idea Yeah. Because all of us are in a relationship. Right? Mhmm.
 
 Yeah. Ben and I are both in heterosexual relationships. Boo. It is pretty disgusting fucking breeders. But, like, I I try to put this delicately, but I know some right I know many people who manage to attract women who I might imagine might struggle to attract women for one reason or another.
 
 So the idea that there's this eighty twenty thing going on is frankly well, it's not even hilarious because it's you know, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous, but it it's for the birds is what it is. Yeah. I mean, just looking at some of my sisters, the stuff they've brought home, goodness gracious. They'd an half pick them. Seriously.
 
 Okay. We'll have a we'll have to do a podcast with your sisters at some point. Just God. It'd be that would be chaos. Yeah.
 
 But it's it is I mean, the to further your point, actually, Adam, it is the I look at a lot of heterosexual relationships, and when women talk about things that their partners, male partners, have done for them and go, oh, isn't it really nice and things like that. Yeah. And I'm like Oh, they did the washing. Surely. That's that's the bare minimum.
 
 Surely. Like, that's not something to rave about. They should be really Surely. You show your mouth. You're not cheating this is super.
 
 But it's also like with parenthood as well, when you have a father playing with the child out in public, people are like, oh, look at him. He's doing so well and da da da. And it's like Such a good father. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 And it's like, that that should be happening anyway. That's yeah. Being a parent. Like, you wouldn't praise a mother for doing that. I think what's interesting about that is the conversation that we're seeing is very much presenting this stuff as as a new thing.
 
 Right? And I don't the format of kind of online misogyny is new. The content in places is maybe more blatant than it's been historically, but the Historically for a while. Relations. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. The the fundamental gender relations it presents are not just, you know, ones that have been in in place for for a long time in many situations, but also ones that are more subtly, but still very much present, encouraged in the general culture. Right? Like, I I know I find this thing where, like, when you're in a when you're in a group of men as a man, there are things, particularly if you're maybe slightly socially awkward as I am, there are things that you kind of shut up. Things that you can say There were kinda classic tropes that end up you know?
 
 And, like, there's the my bitch wife or my bitch girlfriend trope. Right? Like and, like, you can get some real easy laughs and some real, like, masculine bonding through being like, oh, you know, the missus wants me to do this, or, oh, you know what they're like. And none of that is as blatant as your Andrew Tate shit. Right?
 
 It but it still fundamentally is about the same gender relations. Right? And and I think I've seen a lot of stuff where it's like, this is a brand new problem. This is a whole new thing that we don't have the tools to deal with. And I kinda think, actually, it's a very old problem.
 
 Yeah. You know, feminism has kind of been trying to deal with for quite quite some time to to varying degrees of success. I think it's because, a lot of the stuff and power dynamics and whatnot has has been kind of become quite, occluded, so quite hidden. And so it's just under the radar kind of stuff that's happening all the time. So we think it's resolved, or we're saying that it's resolved even though it's not.
 
 And people like Andrew Tate are it's it's it's like saying the quiet bit out loud. That's that's what they're doing, in a in a sense. So it's not just what they're doing, but that's one of the things. And so when it's so blatant, people get shocked by it, I think. But it's like, hang on a second.
 
 This this is what's been going on this whole time, like what you're saying. Yeah. I think the only thing I find interesting about that is the kind of the narrative then becomes that men are pushed to this. You all men are pushed to this, due to a lack of male role models or even just going all out and saying, well, there's too much feminization of society. There's, you know, it's people young men have been pushed into this because they don't feel welcome as men in in culture at large.
 
 And I just don't think that's true. I think the reality is that if there's any pushing that happens, it's when young men encounter some pushback against the ideas they have been indoctrinated in for their entire life. That is what's uncomfortable. It's because it's not about there's no place for a man. What it's about is it's becoming more common for misogyny to be challenged.
 
 And I think if there is anything way to young men are being pushed to this stuff, it's not the whole of society. In fact, they're socialized to assume that they're kind of okay and can do whatever. It's when they hit the rare experience of having that internalized misogyny challenged, some of them respond by running to things like online misogyny and agitate and all that. But that is not a result of the whole of society being too feminized or unwelcoming to men. It's fundamentally result of the underlying misogyny that is internalized by young men from the day they're born.
 
 Yes. And I think there's also I think that's right. And I think there's also a deeper element where a lot of I mean, people generally are becoming increasingly alienated, but I think men are becoming more and more alienated. And as you say, there's not those adequate role models for people to look at and go, well, I'm told that I can't just call a woman a bitch because she upset me. What else do I do?
 
 But then Andrew Tate comes along or whoever and kind of says, oh, no. You're the man. You're the alpha. Show them who's boss. Yeah.
 
 And it's if you're a teenager, what do you go to? Do you go to the thing that's quite easy to understand and clear, or do you go for the leftist bullshit, which is too complicated to understand for the most people? Yeah. It's it's hard. And I think power, isn't it?
 
 It's it's, you know, that that it's we've said that's about power. Right? What amputate and there's ill coauthor is is when you're powerful, you get power. Yeah. Which deals with that issue of alienation of being scared and unable to connect with people properly and uncertain about your future and because of the economy, climate change, and so on.
 
 And it's easy to target someone and blame them as the problem. It ties into some of that narrative around white working class men, right, which is this narrative that we see more and more, I think, in the media about how white working class men are being left behind. And it's obviously just not obviously, actually, but to us, perhaps obviously baked in misogyny and racism as an idea because the reality is that the working class is is multigender and multiethnic. That is the the makeup Yeah. Of of the working class.
 
 And by focusing in on white working class men, there is a narrative being pushed that says, well, actually, it's tough to be a man or it's tough to be white, but using some kind of fig leaf class politics on top of that. And I think so much of this conversation about extremist forms of masculinity are taking as the base assumption that actually is really difficult being a man and, you know, maybe it is really difficult being being white, because there's a you know, there's absolutely racial dimensions that perhaps as a group we're not entirely equipped to to unpack here and now. But certainly to a lot of this, you know, online manosphere stuff, it is there is certainly a racial element to what's what's at play there. But, yeah, actually, the base assumption that society is unwelcoming to to men is one that seems to be quite commonly accepted and seems just obviously misogynistic when you put it like that to me. Yes.
 
 And I think there's something about the Brexit narrative that we've had of that nostalgia of the good old days of the sort of forties, fifties, sort of during the war and just after the the war of of of men, working class men going out earning a living. And I and I think it draws upon some of that as well, that there's this narrative of things used to be better, but also Britain used to be British, I think, is a, like Yeah. That's one that I And I think it comes from those sentiments as well, which feeds into it. So if you've got this narrative that's going on already, it's easy to hook onto this idea of of working middle class men being left out. I just stopped taking liberals and sort of liberal conservatives seriously when they talked about class a long time ago because they fundamentally don't understand what it is.
 
 Like, they don't really have a class analysis. They use it as a way of stoking a culture war. Some of them realize that they're doing that, and some of them don't, but that is what they are doing. Right? If your if your class politics is more about sort of pitting this group of people against this group of people, and, actually, material conditions relation to means of production doesn't come into it at all, then your class analysis is dog shit.
 
 Like, it's shallow. It's based in nothing. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, yeah, the the refusal to really understand class is is also, you know, part of this because there is a vulnerability to all men, young men particularly, who are feeling alienated to this stuff.
 
 But, obviously, your class position has a distinct impact on on how alienated you might feel, but it also has an impact on how how much of your life can be ruined by this stuff. Because if you're, you know, the young scion of landed gentry, actually, fundamentally, there is a limit to how much being sucked down extremist, right wing, misogynistic ideas is gonna have on your life. You're probably sorted either way. But actually, if you're young working class men, if they take it to extreme places, places where they might end up in legal trouble or, you know, might end up ruining their relationships with people, all this sort of thing, it it can have an even greater impact on on their life and have a kind of permanent mark on their record, if you will, that, will follow them around. So I think there's, yeah, there's real class elements to both the vulnerability and the impact of of young men for this stuff.
 
 I think we will take a little pause there. In a minute, we will talk a little bit more about kind of masculinity in the church. But before we do that, I think it is time for a saint of the week. Saint of the week. Saint of the week this week is and I'm sorry if I butcher the Spanish name here, is father Jose de la Jara, who was a a Spanish, Catholic priest who was in, Nicaragua.
 
 And he, started what is now recognized as the first base ecclesial community. So, perhaps he's most famous because, the basically, the community he set up was visited by God. Yes. My the name just completely went out of my head. That yeah.
 
 All all I could think was Selentiname, which is the place he was, and I couldn't think of a name, but it's Ernesto Cardenal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 And all I all my brain was doing was going, an army. So let an army. So and I was like, no. I know that bit. Okay.
 
 So so so not god, but, like, a step down from god. I will also say that it probably was visited by god and, like, I'm I'm prepared to say that, like, there was some yeah. Thank you. But, more concretely, yeah, Ernesto Cardenal, the incredibly well known, kind of liberation theologian and priest. Incredibly well known in our circles.
 
 Yeah. Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Behind the standards of this. I know the guys over at the Magnificast have chatted about him a lot. I'm sure he's come up here as well. He wrote a book that is essentially a kind of transcription of some of the conversations he'd had with his, basically, his community, called the gospel in Solentiname, which is, yeah, a brilliant book of theology. And, yeah, very influential on her liberation theology and movements towards kind of different models of church and all that sort of thing.
 
 And what I find interesting about, Jose de la Jara is that he never really got that kind of he's not a particularly well known figure. He doesn't even have his own Wikipedia page. But he's extremely influential on this person that then becomes extremely influential. So I think that's quite an interesting kind of yeah. To see the people behind the people that you've you've maybe heard of, is quite interesting.
 
 So he set up in, San Pablo on the outskirts of Managua, a base community, in 1966. And so he wanted to show that the parish was not about the building or the kind of territory it was in, but the the family of God, the community that was there. So the the people in that community were active participants. So they read and discussed the bible. And they also kind of worked together to write a, a a mass called the Nicaraguan popular mass.
 
 It's it's obviously in in Spanish name for it, but I can't say it. So you're gonna get it in English, which is probably the first Catholic mass to kind of move outside of the traditional church music. So it was done with kind of traditional Nicaraguan, instrumentation and musical style, and it was it's kind of first performance was was done by kind of the local Nicaraguan community using their kind of classic musical settings, instrument, all the rest of it. So it's a kind of a very, very early form of culturally rooted kind of Catholic worship, which again is, you know, has been a growing thing and is and is very influential. So, yeah, some something really interesting about that.
 
 The actual kind of conversations that happened in that base ecclesial community were not as political as the ones that end up happening in the London army under Ernesto Cardenal, or at least not directly political. But, there was a sense that kind of it gave local people a sense of autonomy and of kind of personal respect, and it was particularly empowering to the women because this was a space in which their kind of views and ideas were taken seriously and kind of they were active and equal participants in what was what was going on in that community. So, yeah, I think there's something fundamentally political about that even if they weren't discussing kind of politics in the more narrow sense. Actually, that returning of dignity and self respect to two people, and the uplifting of women in that community, yeah, is really, yeah, really exciting. So yeah.
 
 Jose de la Jara does actually go and visit, Solentiname and some other of the base ecclesial communities, and it's kinda considered a bit of a godfather figure, I guess, to to these people. And, his basic ecclesial community that he founded still exists to this day. The Nicaraguan popular mass is still still used to this day. And, yeah, someone who's kind of, yeah, quietly very influential in the history of kind of liberation theology and locally rooted expressions of church. One of the things I quite like actually about that is it shows how there's that interplay between the person who's leading whatever it is and the community itself and the personalities that are in that that then kind of flavours what comes out of it.
 
 So he said it wasn't quite as, political as Ernesto Cardenal's one, in in Solentiname, which is, yeah, really interesting. But there was still that real emphasis on bringing people together and empowering people and and yeah. Quite like that. Yeah. It was definitely a, yeah, quite an interesting thing to have this person who is, very not a prominent figure, but, yeah, is so actually key in because I say that it is the first basic ecclesial community, and it's become hugely influential things in the Catholic church.
 
 Not just in Solentiname, but in, you know, across liberation theology. Right? In Catholic liberation theology is is found in basically your communities. But the person who kind of started the first one and and was then kind of helped guide the creation of them is not someone who is a particularly well known figure. Say of the week.
 
 So shall we return to talking a little bit about masculinity? We were gonna tackle a little bit some of what these issues of kind of problematic, dangerous masculinities might look like within, the church context. And I want to do something unusual here, which is to praise evangelical culture on this. Because, traditionally, evangelical culture is is roughly ten to fifteen years behind the rest of culture. But when it comes to your Andrew Tate and the likes of this, let me tell you, Mark Driscoll was pioneering this stuff a long time before.
 
 This is one of those areas where the evangelical church was well ahead of the curve line. Was it no. They were so far behind that they now Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Ahead of the curve. He he is awful. He what was it? He he referred to women's vaginas as penis houses, I think.
 
 Something like that. Yeah. He talks about the the the the pacification of the church. Oh, yeah. I mean, doesn't the word vagina essentially mean penis house?
 
 Is this a sort of euphemism for that? She I mean, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 So, you know, at least he's being honest about it. I mean, this is this is one of the arguments that some some feminists make when they try to reclaim the, queen mother of dirty words, cunt, where they say that vagina actually literally translated. It is like a sheath for us all. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Whereas cunt, we don't actually know where that comes from. It just So And it may actually Yeah. But, yes, the, Mark Driscoll, was kinda probably the loudest and most unpleasant proponent of the kind of I mean, we're going back almost twenty years now, aren't we, to the height of the Driscoll stuff. Right? And he was a a very prominent evangelical pastor in The US, Bosco Steliz, who said to him quite frankly, nowhere near as prominent or influential as he was.
 
 Well, no. Because he had a a a a fall from grace, didn't he? And then Yeah. It seemed always incredible how often these people have a you know, they do something awful, and they take some time out to to reflect and then come back about, like, six months later, and they're a pastor again and, like, it's all fine. Mhmm.
 
 And just carry on the same nonsense they were before. It I mean, that's how the Catholic church does it. They just move people around. Same with the Church of England. Town c of Eve.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. And so and and to be honest, Johnny, the Methodist church has had its fair share as well. So I don't know what you're talking about. We're too small to be publicized about.
 
 We're too unimportant. But, yeah, he he kind of represented actually a broader movement of aggressively hypermasculine church pastoring that was the trend ten to fifteen years ago or was quite influential. And it's kind of waned in influence actually since then. So you get here and there in kind of smaller, hyper conservative places. You still get the hyper masculine, you know, red meat and blowjobs, all this stuff.
 
 Like, but it's particularly in The UK, it is vanishingly rare. And I'm interested to talk a little bit about the types of perhaps softer masculinity that you see particularly in kind of church leaderships that are still deeply misogynistic and and dangerous. I can think of one. Go on. Nicky Gumble.
 
 Classic classic kind of soft Yeah. Sort of gentle Christian vicar who Mhmm. Nevertheless has some questionable ideas. And that's that's a class thing as well, isn't it? Because he's also, you know, upper middle or just straight up upper class, in his presentation and his kind of yeah.
 
 The way he is. And I think yeah. You're so right as you know, I mean, he's not maybe the most, egregious example of his views, but his mannerisms, the way he presents himself is, as you say, this very soft, gentle form of masculinity. But but people like that often like, his views are still Oh, yeah. That that are that that we would have a problem with.
 
 Right? It's just that he kind of masks it quite well behind a lot of that stuff, and I think that's a very common approach. I was gonna say it's it's quite insidious in how it happens, I think, with with people like that because it is subtle. It's not as in your face, but it's you know, you look at the content, and it's pretty much the same. You're still there.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. The form is different, but the content is the same. I'd be really interested to know if someone like Mark Driscoll considered Nicky Gumbel someone who had pussified the church or whether actually because they probably agree on a lot of stuff, he wouldn't. I think partly there's cultural context there that's say different, right, in terms of the the American UK context.
 
 But I think someone like Driscoll maybe would because I think his concept Vibes for him a lot of it. It's all vibes. It's such a strong reason to structure masculinity. The other kind of so I think there are two main archetypes I was thinking about. One of them is, as you said, that kind of usually vicar, but just any sort of pastor that is, you know, gentle, softly spoken, even if, you know, the view is quite abhorrent.
 
 And the other one I'm thinking is is the younger, you know, skinny jeans, acoustic guitar, or whatever else. You know? Yeah. You you you passed that. Person that at leaders.
 
 At some point in our in both your your past, Ben, and my past, probably not so much Johnny, we may well have, looked up to and and and wanted to attain at some point, when we were much, much younger. Yeah. I I didn't because I was far too refined for that, Adam. Yeah. You were already wearing skinny jeans.
 
 I will I mean, I do wear skinny jeans now. Of course you do. You're like an elder millennial. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Same here. Right? Like, I understand fashion has moved on, but I have no interest in finding out where it's moved on to. I I'm going to be wearing the stuff I was wearing age 28 until I die. Like, that is the I mean Yeah.
 
 It's, far me for me to criticize someone's fashion choices because I've never given a shit. But, but, yeah, there is that there is that element of, like, you know, millennials now do get, like, a lot of, jokes saying their way from younger generations because they haven't moved on from skinny jeans and and stuff. Oh, absolutely. It happens with every generation, and we're now at that age It's funny. Where Yeah.
 
 It I I enjoy it. Well, well, some Just a minute. Maybe one one person here is at that age, Johnny. Yes. I'm not having that.
 
 I'm sorry. I was putting you two in that age bracket at least. Let's be very clear. So the difference is the difference is, Ben, as I say, I've never given a shit about what I wear. It's got nothing to do with the age.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. It's just that I can wear a sack and be fine with it. But, yeah, I think that, you know, that kind of masculinity is really interesting. You know, it kind of corresponds with, you know, what what used to be and perhaps still is called, like, a fuck boy or or even the soft boy kinda archetype.
 
 Right? And, like, I don't think these people are necessarily fuck boys in this sense that they they have, you know, multiple relationships. Although, yeah, it definitely happens. I've I know someone who was, a member of HTB for some years. Sure.
 
 I'm but I I think I'm more interested in the, like, the expression of masculinity that that feels progressive on the surface. And I think it almost becomes more obvious because a lot of these guys, they're like, you know, we're cool. We're young by the standards of the church. You know, we're trendy. We're expensive trainers and skinny jeans and, like, you know, spend a lot of time on our hair.
 
 There's that kind of you know, we don't we don't use the term metrosexual anymore, but when this was first coming, that was definitely a a thing. Right? I forgot that word existed. Yeah. I know.
 
 I was like, oh, yeah. That that was Yeah. Yeah. Hard to identify. But, actually, more more than the kind of other type, these people are are, you know, actually often deeply misogynistic in their personal relationships.
 
 Right? You know? They they have they have a smoking hot wife as is the as is the kind of custom within these circles. And it kinda doesn't matter, I think. So some of these people would describe themselves as having more egalitarian view, some as a complementarian view.
 
 But I think a lot of the time, regardless of what they say they believe about the role of men and women, the relationships are powerfully heteronormative based on gender relations that are, you know, very stereotypical. And just the way interpersonally these men will treat treat the women in their lives is, yeah, deeply sexist in a lot of ways. But it is very biblical. Like, if we look at Well, that's the main thing. Yeah.
 
 But but if you wanna kind of, you know, talk about it theologically and use the bible as our main ground for it, actually, most of the bible would say, yes, actually, that's the right way to be because it's about men dominating women. Mhmm. And and sometimes other men. Yeah. Absolutely.
 
 As long as you're the one doing the dominant. But as long as you're the one doing the dominating, that's okay. Yeah. That's the right way of doing it. I think that Rachel Held Evans, she's got a book called, the year of biblical womanhood.
 
 Mhmm. I don't know if you've come across this book, but she's sort of proving a point a little bit where she spends a year living as as a woman might live in in the bible, and it shows you how mad it would it it often is to apply a lot of those same standards to today. So I think that's that's worth that's worth checking out to kind of remind us that just because something is biblical, I e, it is there in the bible, doesn't mean that it's necessarily applicable to how we're living our lives today or that it should be. And so Absolutely. That's heresy, Adam.
 
 How dare you say such things? The Bible It's heresy. Button. That's right. Yeah.
 
 Don't I did I tell you what happened when I because I introduced the heresy heron to my, theology department when I was an undergrad. And, obviously, I introduced it as a joke because I don't know, actually, I don't even know shit about that stuff. But, like, people picked it people loved it. Right? I people who I was studying alongside, and they picked it up and they started using it.
 
 But most of those people were, like, Calvinist theology bros. And so they would start, like, using it unironically at lecturers as they were lecturing. And I heard thirdhand that at least one lecturer had been reduced to tears by this. And I was like, oh, dear. We need to stop doing this.
 
 So what you're saying is you created a meme, and then it was co opted by the right. That never happened before. I mean, it's a rare thing, obviously. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. So what you're saying, Adam, is that the bible was written in a different time, in a different culture, in a different context, and can't be directly applied to today. Well, I it's not that none of it can be directly applied to today. There are lessons we can learn from it, but broadly speaking, yes, that is what I am saying. Send me to hell.
 
 I mean, we're all going there, so that's fine if it exists. Some of us are already there, Johnny. Well, yes. Yeah. But enough about I'm going to cut that out because I do not want people to know where I live.
 
 You can just you can just beef it if you like. Yeah. I I I think there was obviously, yeah, a biblical element to it. But I also I wonder if there's also a functional element of the sort of people and and men in particular who are attracted to church or stay in churches and potentially even take on employed or unemployed leadership roles, they are people who want to be in places where they can not have to, I guess, perform new types of masculinity, right, or or better types of masculinity, perhaps we should put it as. Yeah.
 
 You know? And and I think they're probably, young men, like teenagers and and early twenties who are being impacted by Andrew Tate sat in church pews. But I think the culture of churches as a whole are not massively impacted. He's not you know, this online misogynistic sphere is not necessarily impacting churches. But that's at least partially because they're already doing their own kind of misogynistic stuff.
 
 They don't, you know and that is from the churches that actively don't allow women to do anything, churches where they kinda preach male, female roles, but also churches where so they do preach equality between men and women. Maybe they even affirm LGBTQ plus equality. But in a lot of other ways, the roles that people perform in the church, the way people act towards each other are deeply conditioned by by misogyny. And and I think even in our progressive churches, we are still not fully understanding how deep the roots of misogyny in the church goes, which is crazy because increasingly, it's just women there. Like like, men in the church are in fact becoming a, you know, less and less common thing.
 
 And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. But but, you know, even with the fact that women are now the majority of church attenders, the roots of misogyny are still very deeply within the structures and the interpersonal relations within churches. Well, it's a deeply it's it's a I mean, a, internalized misogyny is a thing. Mhmm. But, b, the church was set up, was created in a very patriarchal way.
 
 Right? And so you've got people coming into it now, you know, especially if you're kind of a fairly nice liberal type who perhaps want to be accommodating to those who have different views to them, for example, when, actually, those views are very deeply based in a misogynistic and patriarchal Mhmm. Kind of system. You know, ultimately, even if you don't agree with it, you end up sort of going along with it because, a, you don't wanna rock the boat, and, b, you know, we we have a church that might be fine broadly with women being involved and women taking role, like certain leadership roles and that kind of thing, but it also is a church that doesn't want you to have an argument about that kind of thing, doesn't want you to play into this kind of, what's the term? What's the politics where you have to when you have to be sort of civility civility politics?
 
 Respectability politics. I was really shocked. Going. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Why is it civil civility politics also works, but, yeah, respectability politics. Yeah. So you end up basically going along with it because you've been indoctrinated into thinking that Christianity is basically about respectability politics, and it's not. And I think there's another more, probably sinister strand to it as well, actually.
 
 Because if you are an abuser and you find an institution which will enable you to abuse, you will go there because you'll be in a position of power. So I'm not talking just about, sexual abuse or anything, but being abusive towards women, getting what you want, and being able to spout views that bolster your position in order to abuse. I think that's actually a part of what's going on with people like this. They get to be able to be in a space that enables them to be quite powerful, and they know that they can be in a position of power and use it to be, yeah, to dominate others as we've been saying throughout the this episode, actually. It's about domination, and them having the power over others and them being in a position of authority.
 
 And that's something I am increasingly trying to be aware of, because my brain doesn't work like that. And so it's not something I immediately go to, and I don't think many people would even consider that. But it is a factor that needs to be named, really. But, again, so much of that comes down to those structural issues as well, doesn't it? You know?
 
 And until we deal with those and, like, more and more, I'm struggling to justify any of that, really. You know, obviously, I've always been in a kind of place where I disagree with hierarchies and and that kind of thing anyway. But more and more, I'm sort of seeing that we can't necessarily even use the church in the positive ways in spite of everything that I perhaps once thought we could. You know, it's just constant now. It's it's fairly constant, this stuff.
 
 There's, a critical race philosopher called Lewis Gordon who who is interested in how people are are given license to do what they do, the sort of license ability of of these systems. So it's not focusing on the individuals, but it's, yeah, as you're saying, it's it's the license that that is given to people to do what they do, and that is a systemic thing. And I think thinking about that almost gives it a hook to put on to for people to start thinking and go, oh, yeah. Actually, that's why Trump is able to say what he wants or JD Vance or whoever it is. That's why we have been able to talk about immigration and asylum seekers in the way that we do these past ten, fifteen years because people have been given license to do so.
 
 It's incredible, actually. I I, literally yesterday, I was walking my dog down by the river near where I live, and I saw these two guys. They were, they had their fishing rods out. I don't think they were catching anything, but they were also having a barbecue, and one of them had their dog there. They were having a right good time, and, you know, I stopped to say hello, and their my dog sniffed their dog, and their dog sniffed my dog and all the rest of it.
 
 And they asked me, like, my dog's name, and I said, oh, her name is Louka. And they liked the name. And I said, oh, yes. Well, it's short for Loukanikos, and explained where that came from, the the Greek riot dog. It's Greek for sausage and so on and so forth.
 
 And I said, you know, part of me wanted to name her after another famous riot dog called El Negro Matapacos, but, you know, it wouldn't go down well. And they interjected at that point, and they said, yeah. Well, these days, you you know, you couldn't just shorten that to n word, could you? And I'm like, no. I don't know what No.
 
 You could not. Sort of social interactions are you having? What's your dog's name? Louka. That's a nice name.
 
 Yeah. Thanks. And what what what's you're looking You're walking along a river. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Walking along a river. There's two guys serving a barbecue. They engage you in some conversation. I'm already there because I'm about to pause pause whatever I'm listening to. Yeah?
 
 Yeah. I'm trying to distract myself from the conversation as quickly as possible. But the the the difference between you and I, Ben, is like okay. So there's often this, thing where people think that autistic people don't like people. Right?
 
 Uh-huh. And that's not true. Some don't. Like you, Ben, you don't like people. I'm autistic, and I like people.
 
 I'm just not very good at them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Right?
 
 So I want to have the conversation. I like to meet new people in certain circumstances. Just don't put me in a big room with lots of people. Yeah. Anyway, you were telling the story for a reason, actually.
 
 Yes. I just got distracted by the Well, I think I had I had finished telling my story. It was it was the the this person just felt very, very comfortable Comfortable. Mhmm. To make a joke about and and, you know, using the n word and and how you can't even do that anymore when, actually, you don't even know me.
 
 You've just met me walking the dog. Yeah. And And I know that's the key key point, right, is that there's this low level stuff whether it's racism or misogyny. And that until we understand that, you know, this stuff is happening pretty extensively across the start, these are pretty embedded things. You're never gonna be able to tackle your online alt right, manosphere stuff because you treat it as an aberration rather than what it is, which is as you kind of put it earlier, Johnny, saying the quiet part out loud.
 
 You know, it is it is actually very much in line with the general beliefs, but just expressed in less acceptable formats. Right? And I think, you know, churches also need to kind of tackle tackle that and and, yeah, understand that, as I say, even the most progressive churches, there's an underpinning of of things like classism and racism and misogyny that, yeah, are not as easily undone as you might like to believe. Even if you passed a few policies and you do some, you know, nice talks about how actually, you know what, gays, women, people of colour, they're all white. You know?
 
 Like, you can do all that stuff, but that's not the same as actually unpicking the deep roots of the of what's lying there. And a part of the issue with that is the fact that it requires us to do that self reflection and work out what our part to plan is that is in that. And that's difficult to do, and people don't like to do it. But when you've got someone who comes along, who offers you the solution that's nice and easy and detracts from your own guilt in the situation, you go, oh, yes, please. I'll have some of that.
 
 Yeah. I think it's also important to recognize the relationship that so, you know, we often think of these things as being very, very driven by the Internet. And partly, they are, but but there's a a kind of dialectical relationship between, you know, what you were talking about before, Ben, between the sort of general culture and Internet culture. It's not that one follows the other. It's that they drive each other, and you can kind of see this not only with, say, the story that I was telling a moment ago about the guy who felt very comfortable using the n word around somebody's just met outside in the wild.
 
 Mhmm. But you can see it on the Internet as well just with how much of it now, how much of social media is taken up by the far right, but not just by people who are, you know, the organized far right, but by far right talking points that people now feel completely fine to share. And even even things as simple as I saw something the other day where a young man who was a student doctor was training at the gym, and he died. I don't know if you've seen this story. He died when he slipped off something and the machine hit him in the head.
 
 Right? That news story shared on Facebook was full of laughter emojis. Why do you think that was? Take take one guess. No idea.
 
 Go on. He was brown. Right. And a Muslim. Right.
 
 Yeah. That was the only thing. That's the only thing. Thing. Yep.
 
 Yeah. That's horrible. And there's loads of it. All of these stories Yeah. There is.
 
 Nowhere now. Yeah. There is. Yeah. So not the most, uplifting of episodes, I'm afraid.
 
 But I guess, an an episode about misogyny probably shouldn't be too too uplifting. But look at my water bottle. I did see that earlier, and I wanted to comment on it, but it would have ruined the flow. And that's It is remarkable. I I just fantastic when everyone gets into the audio.
 
 Like, I'm gonna video you flying things up. It is it is a feathers McGraw water bottle, just a black water bottle with feathers McGraw on the front of it, and then the lid is a rubber chicken head thing, that looks like Where did you purchase that beautiful It was a gift. It was a gift. So, yeah, I'm not sure where to get it from. So you I just wanted something to, like, lighten the mood just a little bit at the end.
 
 So for all the normal people that listen to this on audio while doing, like, the dishes or whatever, you missed out on that. For the weirdo freaks who watch video podcast, that one is for you. I don't get that. I'm sorry. Hello, Steve.
 
 Now available on YouTube. Hello if you're watching this on YouTube, but also stop it. That's weird. Don't fuck us for listening to what he's doing. Spotify Spotify also has videos.
 
 So It does. Yeah. Don't like it. Don't understand it. I'm an old man, and I won't I won't understand how the world works now.
 
 That is all we have time for this week. Thank you very much both of you for joining us. Johnny, where in the world can people find you, or are you still the uncontactable man or person? Oh, no. I got to the end, and I defended myself against Gotcha.
 
 misgendering. Oh, dear. Oh, dear. I mean, you can find me in in the real world, in real life, or IRL as the kids say. Well, I just I'm hunted down on the streets.
 
 In North Norfolk. I'm preaching at lots of churches. It's a big deal. I was called a really cool minister the other day. But was it blind?
 
 That that reflects more than other ministers than it does on you. Let's be honest. Absolutely. Adam, where the world can people find you? You can find me most places.
 
 Probably biggest ones are TikTok, blue sky, maybe YouTube as well @commiexian And, both you, Ben, and I have articles coming out in Shibboleth magazine soon. So, go and, look on the Shibboleth website, Google Shibboleth. And It's very exciting. Yeah.
 
 And maybe, sign up and get some copies of Shibboleth magazine. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for listening. As always, if you wanna get in touch with us, give us your feedback, ask questions, all the rest of it, We'd love to hear from people.
 
 All the contact details on our website breadandrosaries.com and probably in the description of whether you are listening or watching this. Thank you very much as always, and we will see you next time. Goodbye, everyone. Goodbye. Bye.