Ep.71 - He Died for Our Sins... Time for Chocolate (feat. James Sholl)

Avoid God's wrath by joining Ben, Jonny, Adam and returning guest James Sholl, pastor of Toronto’s Wellspring Worship Centre, as they ask 'why did Jesus (have to) die?' Is penal substitution just divine child abuse? Does Jürgen Moltmann's solidarity theory hold up? And most importantly, how many times can Ben say the words "lick out" before we never want a Caramel Egg again? Plus learn about Saint of the Week, Trevor Carter, the Windrush-generation communist who co-founded Notting Hill Carnival.

Content warning: May contain traces of heresy

Transcript

Warning: This transcript may not be entirely accurate.
 
Hello, and welcome to Bread and Rosaries, The UK Christian Left podcast that believes the true meaning of Easter really is chocolate. I'm Ben Molyneux-Hetherington joined today by Adam Spiers and Jonny Bell. Say hi, Adam. Hello. Say hi, Johnny. Hello. 

 And we are joined today by returning guest, James Sholl, back after his incredibly brave feat of tolerating just having Adam to talk to for a whole episode last time. Welcome back, James. Thank you. Thank you.
 
 And you know what? It didn't it didn't put me off. It was enough to get me back. So I think that's Can I just say wonderful testimony of the strength of Adam's, hosting skills? So There we go.
 
 Yeah. And to be honest, like, James has, had to put up with me for a lot longer than you fuckers have. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 I've I've found, one of the interesting things about being, I am in Canada for those of you that are wondering why my accent is slightly off, and I've been here for a while. I find out that, like, being slightly complimentary is very disarming to people from The UK now. So it's really good to throw people off balance with you. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Actually, I had a great time. They're like Yeah. I take offence to that. That is personally offensive that you're a bit kind to me. Yeah.
 
 I know. It's like it's like damning with faint praise. James, for anyone who didn't catch your last episode, do you wanna just give a brief, overview of who you are and what you do? Yeah. Sure.
 
 I am a pastor of a church in Toronto, which is in Canada. Church is called Wellspring Worship Centre. About seven years ago, there'd been a kind of historically evangelical church and an evangelical denomination, and they decided they wanted to go in a bit more progressive direction. So they hired a bunch they interviewed a bunch of evangelical pastors and didn't realize just where a lot of the theology was at, I think. And so after despairing for a long time, they got desperate enough to ask me to apply for the job.
 
 And my plan was actually to join the Church of England. I was an old man in the Church of England, so that was the direction I was going. But I I just completed my, MDiv in Toronto, and so I didn't wanna go back to school in in England. So I was like, oh, I'll do this for a couple of years, and that was six years ago. And and now here we are with, more people at the church, more queer people at the church, queer representation and leadership of the church, all very exciting stuff.
 
 I mean, we're way poorer now, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. All the rich, you made no fools left to took their money. And and and instead, we we get to, embrace refugees and people with disabilities and and people, that have a really hard time staying afloat.
 
 So we we get to be like That's the gospel. Beautiful. Yeah. I know. Right?
 
 It comes up a couple of times is what I tell people. So You described yourself as being in Toronto, which is in Canada, but you didn't add for now at the end of there, but I understand that that's I mean, I I well, I I mean, I'm I'm marrying, a girl from Toronto next month, so we're gonna be around here for a bit. But I real I mean, I actually like there's lots of lots of England to like, and there's lots of Toronto, which is the less brilliant. So, we're in a constant state of, existential crisis. So I'm kind of hoping that, you know, if if the world blows up, at least I don't have to make that decision for myself.
 
 So that's all it is. You know, it's not gonna it's not gonna blow up, but you are gonna become the fifty first state, apparently. That's that's kind of what I was driving at. But you said it's Canada, but I believe it's gonna be The USA fairly soon. Like, is that?
 
 I'd say what I hope I believe that I would embrace nuclear apocalypse. Yeah. And I won't ask you to rate returning to The UK on that on that list. That's not If you blow your eyes, they look quite similar, unfortunately. So this episode was gonna be released or is gonna be released sometime around Easter.
 
 I think our usual reschedule will be Easter Monday, but we might, depending on how the editing goes, release slightly earlier, so it's like Easter kinda Easter weekend some days. Isn't it? Isn't it like Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're probably right.
 
 You don't even know. We're 71 episodes in, and you still don't bloody know your own podcast. Do you know what it is? It's that my my phone reminds me every other Monday to make sure there's an episode coming out because then it gets released early on the Tuesday morning. So that's that's why it's drilled in my brain.
 
 That's why you think it's, yeah, Monday. Yep. This podcast is so chronically ADHD. But, Adam, you proposed that we have a bit of a conversation about what I said was the true meaning of Easter, which is chocolate. And you did ask us to bring bring some chocolate, to to to propose as the best.
 
 Was it the best Easter chocolate or just the best chocolate in general? Yeah. I'd I'd to be honest, I don't even know, like, what direction I really was thinking because I've brought chocolate that I don't even think is the best. So Okay. Well, go on.
 
 What have you got? I have I mean, it's a solid choice, I think, but I have a whisper gold. Yeah. So it's Mid. Mid.
 
 Mid. Mid. Mid. No. I'm I'd easily go B+/A- on Whisper Gold.
 
 Absolutely. So It's a solid choice. It's not the best, but it's Whisper, you've just taken a chocolate bar and got less chocolate and more air in it. That's a disappointment. Like So just make it bigger?
 
 What's your price? I can I can understand if there's a solid logic to that day? But also, obviously, can't be an evil company like They're all bloody evil. Do you feel that way about sourdough? It's like you take bread and you add air to it.
 
 It's terrible. Like, I just want I want I want my bread to be just raw. Unleavened. Unleavened dress. Thank you.
 
 Just squash that bread down. It's like a hard tack. None of this Yeah. None of this foreign. Just My I have also gone for the evil Cadbury corporation, and I have, the the Cadbury caramel egg.
 
 So here's my controversial take. Cream eggs You were critical of chocolate and caramel and Cadbury’s, and you've hit three of those peaks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 No. The caramel and the Whisper Gold is does elevate it above a whisper. I'm just not a big Whisper fan. Like, that's my Yeah. But I don't understand it.
 
 Like, your whole thing is, oh, oh, it's aerated. So buy two. Yeah. Sure. Like, I I'm just not a big whisper fan.
 
 That's all it comes down to. Like, the the Creme Egg is is a very overrated, new Easter product, because the I quite like I quite like Creme Eggs. But they they degraded in quality. They they started using the kind of American ingredients for the chocolate. Right?
 
 Well, it wasn't the English ones. It wasn't American. They just stopped using like, there are two grades of Cadbury's chocolate. Right? As in, like, milk chocolate.
 
 You've got dairy milk chocolate, and then you've just got standard Cadbury's chocolate, and they stopped using the dairy milk chocolate. Mhmm. It tastes way more like the American ones, which are bad. So Yeah. Which it shouldn't.
 
 Yeah. You're right. But, yes, that's I I would say caramel egg, like, king of Easter chocolate and so much better than the cream egg. And this is important. It is like most chocolate has to come out of the fridge.
 
 That is that is no. I mean, I got it. Because then you can crack the egg, like, and then you and I'm gonna say something disgusting, but then you lick out the filling. That is the such horror on on James's face. Just show a video.
 
 I will not be I will not be doing video. Like, that's that's on a that's on a separate subscription service. Yeah. We can print this out for our patrons now. Watch Ben licking out a at least caramel egg.
 
 It's just only fan. It's just one person, and it's just Ben. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Ben watching himself over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. Moving swiftly onwards. James, what what is Canadian chocolate like?
 
 Is it is it similar to American or is it a Well well, Canadian chocolate is bad, which is why I don't eat it. But today, I I have brought the, it's it's wait. Way I'll show you guys. It's actually the Ritter Sport, fruity duo. Like a Ritter Sport.
 
 Yeah. Ritter Sport, a high quality chocolate from Germany, which is has no problematic history at all. No. So, you know, this but this, it claims to have lots of, fair tradey bits in it, and it has some parts that are blackcurrant and some parts that are raspberry. And I do like a fruit and chocolate combo, and this this was reduced from about eight pounds to two pounds, which was another exciting Winter Sport is a pricey option.
 
 Is it an import then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 I went I went premium, but I got it from a a discount store. So that's And you're washing it down with a Fanta. Right? That's all, mate. I also if you wanna know the terror I have, it's it's actually a purple mountain dew.
 
 Oh, choc chocolate and carbonated drinks is a terrible combo. The mouthfeel of drinking a fizzy drink after eating chocolate is awful. You just don't like anything aerated. That's what it is. Yeah.
 
 I eject to air. I'm actually I've actually got my carb running outside just to make sure the air is as polluted as possible. Like This man just goes to, like, every shop ever and breaks the shit out of every soda stream. He's just like Yeah. Yeah.
 
 No. Not in my To be fair, you should do that because they are on the BDS list. So it's great. It's co Coca Cola, aren't they? It's Coca Cola.
 
 Owned by Coca Cola now, but but, SodaStream are especially bad because they literally make their stuff in the occupied territories. So Do they? Yep. And I am missing several teeth, which I, attribute at least in a major part to a fairly crippling addiction to diet coke that I had in my in my kinda late teens, early twenties. So, yeah, Coca Cola, I'm afraid, thumbs down.
 
 But as the famous Donald Trump tweet says, I will keep drinking that garbage, unfortunately. Trump's not wrong on March, but Diet Coke, I'm afraid, he is a % correct on. Johnny official line of the podcast. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 You can try to stand for that. Johnny, do you have any controversial contributions to our chocolate discourse? Perhaps Nutella. Okay. Love Nutella.
 
 Is it feel that's a bit of a side Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it counts. I mean, I'm not really a big chocolate fan, so it's a bit tricky.
 
 And do you eat the Nutella by the spoon? Yeah. Occasionally, yes. Usually, I'm just Good. That's yeah.
 
 Then then that's fine. Yeah. But if you're eating it by the spoon, I feel that it's chocolate, but spreading on toast changes it for some reason that I can't justify at all. As soon as it becomes an ingredient, it's no longer chocolate. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. If you melted, like, a chocolate bar then onto toast, would that no longer be chocolate? Oh, this is getting too philosophical for me. I'm, yeah.
 
 Hey. If this is Ariel, I don't wanna know. That's that's all I can say. That's I want the densest form of chocolate possible. Do you know why like, how Nutella came about?
 
 Do you know this story? No. I do. It was an art season or something. No.
 
 No. No. No. No. No.
 
 No. No. You're all good. You're all good. So it is obviously, Nutella is the filling of Ferrero Rochers.
 
 Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. And essentially, from what I recall, essentially, they overproduced the filling at some point in the Ferrero Rocher factory. I'm like, what do we do with all this extra filling?
 
 Maybe we'll just sell it as a separate thing on its own. And they were like, oh, this is way more popular than than the actual. So for Nutella is just a byproduct of Ferrero Rocher, essentially. Like It worked out well for them. It didn't seem slimy.
 
 They they've, like, put massive value on their company overnight with that mistake. Worked out well for all of us, Adam. That's really Yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely amazing.
 
 I mean, I I'm pretty sure if we if we dig deep enough, we'll pretty soon find slavery in the supply chain. So I'm not sure about that. Yeah. Yeah. You mean cocoa products having slavery?
 
 That really surprises me. Any products, Johnny. Let's make it. Really? Who knew?
 
 Who knew? I know. Yeah. It's almost like a rule of implicit. You know?
 
 Yeah. So to continue our Easter theme, we are going to talk a little bit about, atonement theories, why did Jesus die on the cross, and all of that sort of thing, to be a proper Easter episode. But before we get onto our main topic, we start, as we always do, with what else is on my mind grapes. Adam, what is on your mind grapes? Oh, shit.
 
 Yeah. It's me, isn't it? What is on my mind grapes? Do you want me to tell you what's on your mind grapes? Because you didn't I know.
 
 I know. I know. I know. I know what's on my mind grapes. There's been a report doing the rounds that says that gen zed or zed if you're James, is, is is going to caught in that drive by.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Says that Gen Zed is going to church more, which, obviously, a lot of the kinds of publications that you would imagine have been very interested in this. So it's from, the Bible Society, I think. Who I don't think are problematic are, like, you know I mean, I don't think they're, like, great. But they're not a fundamentally conservative organization.
 
 Right? Like They're they're as good as it gets. Yeah. Yeah. For something called the pliable society.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 It's a very interesting I've I've actually read the report they put out because, I I'm a sad person with not much going on in my life. So, my wife is away for four days. I had to find something to occupy myself with, so I read the Bible Society's report. And it's interesting. So it basically says that, pretty much church attendance is going up in all, age groups, but it notes that Roman Catholicism and Pentecostalism are particularly seeing an increase.
 
 And for those of us who who know a little bit about that sort of thing, that peaked an immediate question, which was, so is this just immigration? Because is yes. Right? Not according to them. Oh, whatever.
 
 You you may have got to where I'm going, James. We'll see. There is actually a quest they have an FAQ question at the end, and the first FAQ is, is this not just immigration? And they say, no. It's not because we also see a rise amongst, people who identify as white, which okay.
 
 Two problems there. Hang on. Hang on a minute. One What? You know white immigrants exist.
 
 Right? No. No. Not not according to the apparently more problematic than we realized before Yeah. Yeah.
 
 30. When you think about Roman Catholicism growth, Eastern European immigrants are often, like, part of that story. Right? So absolutely white immigration is part of the story. But the second thing was that tells me that you don't have a question about immigration status in this study, which seems an insane oversight in the study when you're looking at church growth because that is the major story about church growth that everyone talks about is immigration is forming a big part of kind of the numbers within churches.
 
 So why, if you want to do a study into this, would that not be one of your research questions? Right? It seems a massive oversight to me, and it kind of, yeah, suggests that the study is not as robust as you might like. Well, it's not an oversight, is it? Let's let's be honest.
 
 Like, they wanted a particular outcome, and they got a particular outcome. And we see this with studies funded by, like, organizations that have, like, an ideology behind them all the time, so it's hardly surprising. So we see this a lot in Toronto, a very heavily immigrant city of which I am one, obviously. And Wait. No.
 
 No. No. You're you're white. You're not an immigrant. You're not the.
 
 Yeah. Exactly. I'm a wicketer. Yeah. Whatever.
 
 I'm obviously people like but people don't think about you when they mean immigrant. I'm like, but they should. Yeah. Yeah. Because trust me, I've, you know, I've I've tried to navigate your terrible immigration system.
 
 I as someone who's has a decent grasp of the English languages, ban my head against the warmth, so it's bloody. Anyway, yeah, we we see this a whole lot. Right? Like and, a lot of the folks saying like, oh, yes. The kind of conservative church is more, as, yeah, Pentecostalism and Catholicism, especially we have a big, big, Filipino, community in in, Toronto, and they've sort of historically been, Catholic as well.
 
 We could talk about the historical reasons why that might be, but it is this interesting thing that you have a lot of, kind of first gen immigrants that join these quite conservative spaces, and then their children are like, we don't wanna be part of this thing anymore. And then they go, oh, the all the children there were leaving the church. I'm like, no. They're just leaving your kind of toxic culture. And, again, recognize that there are excellent parts of Western society, and there are less excellent parts of Western society, and there are excellent parts of collectivist societies, and there's sometimes less excellent parts of those collectivist societies.
 
 And when you have a melting pot like Toronto, you just get to go like, maybe I'll just take the excellent parts of both. And, I mean, end again and leave things like the weird shame culture and homophobia behind because that wasn't liberating all the way of Jesus. So And the thing that I the other thing that I noticed about it is that they got YouGov to conduct the poll, which I found was quite interesting because YouGov are a political polling organization, whereas there are organizations. They're not only a political polling organization. They do all sorts of stuff.
 
 I mean, I know is it like Nadine Zahawi who, like, cofounded or something. But, like It's opinion polling is what I'm saying. Right? It's not they're not a social research organization. Now I currently work for a social research organization, so I won't say too much.
 
 But I think there's a very distinct difference in the methodology employed in polling than there is in social research. And that's not to say that the polls are wrong or that they're in any way trying to kind of be inaccurate or untruthful. You know, I I don't I don't think the people who worked on this were trying to just mislead people. I think they believe, for the most part, what they've got is kinda accurate data. But it is not the same same process.
 
 And I think what you need here to really understand, you know, statistics around, kind of church attendance and the reasons behind that and all the rest of it is is kind of proper social research from an academic perspective, which, you know, does exist. There are people who do that work, and they are not generating the same sorts of headlines, but they're probably getting a much more accurate picture of what's going on. Yeah. I suppose the detail and things and the focus of the questions and even the framing of the questions that are being sent to people will be quite different depending on what your purpose is essentially and what, yeah, your main aims of your institution is. And it is really interesting that immigration thing that they kind of tried to preempt it after the fact because it's almost like it's quite bad, yeah, bad survey creation there of of not even considering that as a potential option.
 
 Yeah. Like, you're doing demographics, but you're not thinking about all the factors involved with the demographics. It's yeah. I think you you guys just need to have more faith in Jesus. Like, you're just picking holes in this when clearly the data shows that more people are going to church.
 
 And why can't you just let have let Christianity have this win? I I don't know. It it reminded me of the quote by the completely unproblematic figure, Peter Hitchens, who, you know I'm not I'm not one for particularly quoting or agreeing with Peter Hitchens, but there's this quote. You've probably seen it before where he says opinion polls are a device for influencing public opinion, not a device for measuring it. And, you know, it's really important to say it doesn't mean that, like, they're lies or inaccurate, but that when you see an opinion poll, there is an agenda behind that opinion poll most of the time.
 
 And, actually, I think there is a clear narrative that has been pushed by this opinion poll, which essentially amounts to well, actually, it's the conservative churches or it's churches that do kinda you know, actually, I've seen a lot of people being like, oh, it looks like, you know, Catholic forms of worship, whether that's Roman Catholicism or Anglicanism is, you know, is the way to to win people over. And, you know, I I mean, personally, I'm just not that interested in in, you know, numbers games anyway, so whatever. But I just think there's a lot of kind of going beyond what the potentially not that helpful data says anyway. You know? There is a lot of kind of, well, looking at this, it's pretty clear that actually being conservative is good for the church, that these particular forms of worship are the ones to do, and I I think men.
 
 Yeah. I think, actually, the data doesn't say that, and we're not sure the data's that useful anyway. But even if you accept the data on face value, it's not telling us that. The fact of the matter is as well is that, neither Catholics, nor Pentecostals are real Christians anyway. So What's the one true faith, Adam?
 
 Is is that the Church of England? And thank you for Adam. He helped found this podcast, but this is his last episode today. And so the the the other thing, though, as well, like, just on Peter Hitchens quickly. Like, he's such an interesting character in that probably, like, I'd say, like, 25% generously of what he says is, like, genuinely interesting and and has some basis in truth.
 
 Yeah. And maybe the remaining 75% is, I don't know. Bad shit. Like, well, it's like it's a it's a combination between, like, maybe, like, 40% traditional conservative and then, like, 35% monster. You know?
 
 Like, I I think you're you're forgetting from hell. The the the 5%, which is him getting angry about daylight saving time, which he does every year. He is right about that. He he's upset though because we're messing with time, and he shouldn't mess with time. Like You can't you can't mess with time.
 
 It's an abstract concept. It doesn't exist. So, yeah, scientifically Mhmm. Yeah. Here we go.
 
 Here we go. Yeah. Postmodernity comes in. Oh, science, anyway. No.
 
 We're good. Not gonna take the bait. But, I mean, going back to the survey thing, all it shows is that more data is needed. Like, there are no that's the only conclusion that you can really take. Or less.
 
 Can we just leave it? Can we just leave it? Well, if you're looking at demographics, I mean, some it is important to look at that and changing populations and things like that. So but, yeah, it all it shows is that more research is needed. But as well, there's a there's a thing about how it works in terms of, you know, I know, James, you were saying earlier that you've had some people kinda leave your church and but then you've also had people who maybe couldn't find spaces in kind of other existing churches or didn't feel comfortable in those, kinda join.
 
 And it's, you know, if your if your numbers stay the same, but actually people who have gone to other churches are still doing their thing and you brought in people who are not being reached elsewhere, well, you're not growing a church, but actually, you're providing something meaningful and important to people who can't find it elsewhere. Right? I think there's a to talk about church growth is to miss something quite important, I think, in some ways. Yeah. I mean, again and if all you care about is, like, the net amount of people going to church, it goes up because the people that leave the church I passed to go and find somewhere else.
 
 Because, like, within ten minutes of the church, I might look, these churches will fit you great. I know the pastor's good people. Like, you'll be fine. The people come into Wellspring, they won't go in anywhere because there wasn't anywhere for them. So, like, the net I I we are responsible for the net amount of people going into if that if that actually matters to you and on one level, it does.
 
 But, yeah, I mean, I I say this all the time that I I kind of yeah. I'm I'm more concerned about the people that don't have anywhere to go. Mhmm. And so when people leave and I I I ask them not to and say, actually, they don't need to leave for the reasons they think they need to leave, but I'm not worried about them finding a space. They'll go around the corner.
 
 They'll be embraced. It will be great. The people that are joining us have nowhere, and that's why they're with us. So I Absolutely. I think I will segue us now gracefully onto our main topic of the day.
 
 And I did I did think it would be funny just to say, so, James, why did Jesus have to die and then just let you, Oh, man. Let you explain that. So I wasn't actually I wasn't told about this, but I was, I did a four part sermon series on this last year, which I kinda but which I then, a friend of, Charlotte, a friend of mine in Adam's asked me to share it a little bit with the church that she's pastoring in England, actually, so I did it over Zoom. Yeah. That that was actually why did Jesus have to die?
 
 Well, the typical evangelical answer is because we're all sinful, awful people. And, and luckily, Jesus becomes sin, and then God meets out the punishment that our sin deserves on Jesus instead of us, which is great if only it were true, which it isn't. Why did Jesus have to die? I think there's there's a bunch of answers. One, look at how he lived.
 
 I mean, what, what do we do to people that side with the radically marginalized against oppressive power structures? So that seems like a kind of obvious one. I think Jesus had to die because you look at how he lived. Why do you have to die? Because, well, death has to be defeated.
 
 And in order to defeat death, one must become death and overcome death, which, Jesus does. Why else did he Sounds like Batman. That Yeah. Yeah. Hey, man.
 
 Yo. If you we we can get into if if you wanna get yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly.
 
 And then, I mean, if you wanna get into the really interesting, atonement theories that I'm into, and also the early church you're into, we can talk about that. Why do you have to come death? Why do you have to die? Because he had to show, yeah, he had to become nothing. He had to show everyone.
 
 He had to show everyone, that he identified with the most least and the most most oppressed and everything. And what way can you do that unless you die? Like, if unless you die, he's just then he's just another god that doesn't experience pain or suffering or anything. So so, of course, Jesus has to die. So, like, radical solidarity, I think that's one of them.
 
 I don't think it's, one thing people will say is because of God's wrath, and I don't think it's God's wrath at all. I think God is not into I I I mean, I don't think even well, I don't think God is sent into sacrifices because, God says God isn't into sacrifices, and I take God's word that, like, basically, most of the Old Testament, lots of the New Testament is God going, you keep on offering me sacrifices, and I don't want them. What I want is justice and over and over and over again. And so finally, we get to see this ultimate, like, expression of justice, and this reminder that the the sacrifice that God wants is a living sacrifice. So there we go.
 
 That's, that's four hours in You see, like, yet yet again, another episode of the podcast where I've forgotten to put a sound on the soundboard for heresy. The the whole thing would just you can dub it in afterwards, everything I said there. I mean, it's heresy, but it's also, like, completely biblical. I I got into Oh, heresy is Right? Just he is.
 
 Right? I was I was in a discussion with, it's a long boring story, but the point was I was in an interview with the denomination that didn't want me, which is good. We knew that they didn't. And, like, how do you, you know, how do you become universalist? Which is to say that, I I would say that hell is empty, is how I would phrase my soteriology.
 
 And I was like, well, because the bible tells me. And they're like, what do you mean? They're like, I mean, Philippians two that says every name of Jesus, every name will bow and tell him to confess. So that that seems like something that you do if if you were there. And, you know, the the when he's raised to withdraw all people to himself, which is what it says in John and Colossians, it says, Jesus is pleased or oh, god is pleased to reconcile all things to himself.
 
 I'm just like, it just seems to be the most consistent. And, you know, God's story is one of liberating more and more and more and more, infecting the free over and over and over and over again. So why wouldn't I I think that God gets what God wants, which is every part of humanity Yeah. Of their own creation. So Yeah.
 
 And I think there's, you know, I think you've kinda hit on something really important, right, which is that there there's this idea of what you might call substitutionary atonement Yeah. Or or something similar, which Penal substitutionary atonement or PSA if you don't wanna be with the cool kids. Yeah. And that that's often presented as like the atonement theory in some circles. Right?
 
 You know, God was angry. He needed to get his anger out. And yeah. There was the other son. He was like, well, I'll just take it out on you, which yeah.
 
 That is a very, unfair that is not how people would necessarily phrase it, but, it kinda catches the point a bit. Right? But it I think it's true. Yeah. It's like, I I've got some anger and it's gotta go somewhere.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not to I don't wanna completely straw man it because it's not helpful.
 
 But if you do look up kind of online what penal substitution atonement is, you say, why did this is I did this fourth sermon. So I I Googled, why did Jesus have to die? Like, that's the that's what I sent into Google and Google with its algorithms, knowing what a little woke loser I am, still gave me this answer. So I think that's fairly telling. But it says this that, Jesus took our punishment.
 
 Jesus took punishment for our sins. God's basically, in god's great love, he sent Jesus to die as our substitute. When When Jesus died on the cross, God punished Jesus for our sins. Jesus took the wrath that we deserve. So that is, like, that is the kind of the the general basic understanding of penal substitution atonement.
 
 People can get into it a lot more if they want. I think most elements of this are problematic. The first of which, the idea that God has to punish sin. I I like to kinda give this example of if someone came to you and said that they are in a relationship and, oh, how yeah. He's great.
 
 He loves me loves me so much. Oh, that's amazing. He loves you. Yeah. He loves me.
 
 He does have to punish me, though. I'd be like, right. That doesn't sound like a great relationship. But how do you mean by oh, violently violently punishment. Like, that doesn't sound like a good relationship to be s and m that obviously crack on.
 
 But yeah. I'm assuming that they don't get a say. Yes. I'm not here to consume anyone. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. But okay. But if that same person came back to you a week later and said, hey. Good news. You know, the guy I love and loves me back.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. Well, he doesn't have to punish me anymore. Oh, that's great. That that was my main concern.
 
 It's like, but he does have to violently punish his child whenever I do anything wrong. I'd be like, that sounds like someone you shouldn't be in a relationship with. Right? Like, just just intuitively, we kind of know that's not a good thing. I think, the the kind of prodigal son that I think Brian Zand uses as an example, he says, you know, the prodigal son, the story that we know, son goes away, realizes he's messed up, comes back, and the father sees him in a distance and embraces him.
 
 He said, but what if the father sees the son in the distance, and then he runs to the cow shed and and grabs one of his servants and just pounds on the servants, pounds and pounds and pounds until this servant who's done nothing wrong is just reduced to blood and teeth and mess on the floor. And the father looks up and says, finally, I can forgive my son. We would say this is problematic because it is really problematic. Right? And and one of the kinda sad things that people kind of there's lots of the kind of Christian faith in Jesus, especially, that is so attractive to people, but then they're told, but you also have to believe that God has to punish sin, and God had to punish Jesus.
 
 And, you know, Jesus kinda went along with it. But I'm like, surely there are other options out there. Like, surely I don't have to believe this. And there there is kind of there is some, like, I'd say pretty scant scriptural kind of evidence for it. This wasn't the idea of penal substitution atonement.
 
 This is only about 400 years old, which is not to say it's, like, modern or anything. Not to say it's certainly ancient either, but it's not like the church has always felt this way. The church has actually had a lot of different understandings as to why Jesus had to die. And so the idea that God had to punish sin. I think it's also I realized this is a bit of a tangent, but I just wanna talk about it a little bit.
 
 It's so interesting that we think that sin has to be punished by God. When we see how my I don't know how into scripture y'all get, but there's just so many examples of God saying, I will forget your sin for my name's sake. Like, because I'm God, I'll forget what your sin is. As far as the yeast is from the West, so as your son is removed from you. Like, it's very clear that God doesn't really have much interest in holding on to our sin.
 
 God doesn't really wanna look at like, doesn't even see our sin if we are to take scripture at its word. We see God's heart change all the time from a place of kinda anger and disappointment to embrace. We see that in Hosea. And perhaps most importantly, Jesus is around sin all the time. And how many times does Jesus punish sin?
 
 Like, there is nothing revealed in Jesus that isn't revelatory of God. And so if God Jesus can be around sin all the time and punish sin never, maybe that tells us something. I think the thing that you know, when I was kind of unpacking some of what I'd kind of been brought up to believe and some of the ideas that I'd, you know, taken on when I was younger, I think the thing that you've kind of gestured at, James, that really broke things open for me was the realization that there have always been both in scripture and in the kind of history of the church multiple theories of atonement. And, actually, you know, even in, like, the writings of Paul in the bible, like, he bounces between a few different theories of of atonement. Right?
 
 And and I think that's a really helpful way of thinking about it is that I I actually I don't like the phrase atonement theory. I I like I think atonement metaphor is a much better way to think about these things. Like, actually, these are ways of oh, it's that heresy clip there, Adam. Unbelievable. But, actually, you know, salvation is a really big and kind of probably impossible to grasp in its fullness concept.
 
 Right? Like, that is that is the reality of it. So, actually, the church and the Bible has all these different ways of approaching that big, complicated, powerful idea, and each of them, to a greater or less extent, illuminate some of that. And, you know, we don't just have to say there was only penal substitution atonement. Right?
 
 That that is not historically accurate. That's not consistent with with how the Bible talks about this stuff. Like but we also don't just have to say, okay. If it's not this one, I'm going to pick one other one that is the one that I'm gonna subscribe to. Right?
 
 Actually But but if you did have to pick If you did have to pick one, Adam, go on. Where where would you like to go? I I like, I like Yogan Moltman's kind of solidarity theory. Obviously, you know, we're not just gonna use that as stand alone, but I think that's probably one of my favorites. Speak to it then.
 
 I have crucified God next to me that you, do your thing. Yeah. I'm I mean, I guess, like, the core idea is that you've got a God who is not kind of remote from human pain and suffering. Right? And and kind of the oppression that that causes that, that god actually is imminent in in humanity, loves humanity, and suffers with humanity.
 
 And so, you know, when Jesus says, my god, my god, why have you forsaken me? He's not that's not him necessarily saying, oh, god is absent, but it's like an expression of solidarity with those who who do actually feel abandoned. And it's you know, Yogurt Motwin goes into, you know, he talks a lot about justification and that there is sin and stuff there as well. So it's like it's it's it's a pretty solid thing, but, yeah, I think I think I like this idea of, you know, yeah, the the book, the crucified god, god who is there in our suffering as well. And, actually, it's not I think it sort of acknowledges that I something that I felt for a long time now, which is that, you know, we try to give some kind of forms.
 
 We try to systematize what is happening on the cross, what God is doing, try to essentially put God in a box. But, actually, I've never really felt that there is a particularly satisfying answer to any of this stuff, to human suffering, to general suffering, to cruelty, to sin, to all of that kind of thing. I don't I can't think of any words that really get to the heart of how painful and awful that is. And and, you know, it sounds like a bit of a get out clause, but this is where we have to talk about atonement as a mystery, which I think if anyone gets closest to that, I would say it's probably Jurgen Moltman. It's worth mentioning.
 
 Atonement, this word that we're using here, which has is very, very loaded, is literally just at onement. So onement Yeah. Used to be sorry. You may have talked about this stuff before. Onement used to be a word, which is just say you're kind of you're at peace with someone or a situation like I am at one month with it, which I think is a a beautiful thing.
 
 And so at one month became atonement, and then it became this very loaded thing. But at the core of it, it's like, what is the thing that shows that we are in kind of relationship with God or we're at one with God? And as you say, this kind of solidarity theory from Moltman, I think is wonderful because it ultimately gives, space to people that have been, mistreated and maligned and everything. I did a I might be speaking with some of this Sunday. We'll see.
 
 But a few years ago, I talked about, Jesus as a sorry. This should have a content warning on it. So I don't know how you do that, but, Jesus is a is a victim of sexual abuse, which we see, in in the kind of the stripped body of Jesus, which we sent censor a lot of the time, because it's difficult for us to look at, and it should be difficult for us to kinda look at. But one of the things that's been quite interesting in listening to survivors of sexual violence is one of them one of the interviews I read, she said, on the cross, we it helped me in looking at Jesus on the cross helped me realize that, the world likes to blame people. It likes to blame people who have been mistreated.
 
 It likes to blame people that we've treated badly and and will blame, victims of sexual violence as well. And Jesus on the cross reminds me that just because awful things have been done to us doesn't mean that we've done anything wrong. And like that to me is this ultimate expression of solidarity that Jesus expresses with even the most kinda cruel of circumstances. So again, it's like, why did Jesus have to die? Well, it's so that that victim of sexual violence knows that they have someone that understands.
 
 Like, when they are com in complete isolation and no one else understands, they can look to the naked crucified body of Jesus. I've been really lucky to spend time with, with just some incredible survivors. And, I don't know if you all know who Laurieanne Thompson is. She's the she's the woman that outed Ravi Zacharias, basically. She's the the whistleblower of Ravi Zacharias, Zacharias, and I've got to spend a bunch of time with her, one of my favorite people in the world.
 
 And and we were like, how do you keep faith during this? She's like, where else do I go? It's only the crucified Jesus that understands what I've been through. Like, it's only the crucified Jesus that knows the public spectacle that has been made of me. It's only the crucified body of Jesus that not like, where where else do I go here?
 
 And so that to me and and weirdly, like, I think Jesus is okay with that. Like, I think that was something Jesus was willing. Like, that's a price Jesus wanted to pay. Like, if that's the if the cost is so that a woman like that can come to me and look to me and know that we have solidarity with one another, then, yeah, like, then this is all worth it, which is easy for me to say and not easy for them to say, but all I can do is be humbled and and and and and in awe of them. So I do wanna just push back on one thing that you did say, though, is you said he died so that I don't think my personal view is that God didn't plan for it to happen.
 
 Jesus didn't experience sexual violation so that God could relate to people better, I think it was a because there's a almost an element of choice in there, and I don't think he would have chosen to do that. I don't think God chooses to for bad things to happen. And I think it's I think it almost falls close to things like the penal substitution stuff when we do say that, because it's almost like it was planned. And I I don't believe it was because if God is experiencing humanity as we experience it, we do not control people and and make people do things, you know, in a in a sort of supernatural way as it were. And I think what God does do is take awful things and enable good to come out of them.
 
 Yeah. And and and I don't think yeah. I apologize. I could have worded that better. I would, I think that and would how do I feel about this?
 
 I think Jesus knew what he was doing and knew the inevitability of Yeah. His actions and his words, if that makes sense. So again, like, yeah, the right the the so causal, Again, to be clear, I don't think God forced Jesus to do this thing so that I think that Jesus made many of these choices. And, yeah, and whether it's a as a result or so that. But my so that would be because of his kind of radical love for of all of humanity.
 
 So, like, so Jesus does these things so that, like, it's so it's still a choice if that makes sense, but it's a choice made by Jesus, rather than a kind of imposition by God, if that makes sense. Yes. And I suppose that's what I mean as well, actually. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. But I guess Yeah. I I don't think we were disagreeing, but you're right to push back on the so that. I yeah. Yeah.
 
 And a lot of the time, people do mean that in in a so that Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, oh, well, so that we could be this. No.
 
 No. No. And I think that but that's also, it's it's that kind of radical, solidarity with the marginalized. Like, I think that's a that's a it does seem to be a choice that Jesus makes over and over again. We just we keep on seeing it.
 
 Right? And whether that was and because of that, Jesus and and everyone that has been marginalized can go to Jesus also that I guess the so that the we we're really getting into it. The so that means that there was I I I think there was an intentionality behind what Jesus did. I don't think these things happen by accident. I think that Jesus made choices.
 
 Yeah. I I yeah. So I I don't think we're necessarily disagreeing. I think it's and I think it's all a good conversation. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Yeah. Teasing out the the subtlety. I also want to just briefly, mention the book The Cross and the Lynching Tree by by James Cone. I have two minutes.
 
 Best book. I I have I I know of the Maltman, but I haven't read it. But from what I know of, I think The Cross and the Lynching Tree is kind of so it's taking a very specifically black theology approach, but it is certainly, very compatible with those artists in Moltman. And we don't have time to go into it in any depth. It's actually really short, really easy to read from a like, not easy to read because it's really tough content, but, like, not a long words, difficult concepts book necessarily, but a really deep book of theology.
 
 And it it basically looks at actually when you see black people in America and elsewhere being lynched, being put up on the lynching tree, like, that is you cannot help but look at that and see Christ on the cross and kind of understanding Christ on the cross through the experience of of people who who have the lynch or live in fear of lynching. An incredible book that I I'm I'm not even gonna let us talk about because we can't do it justice. But but for me, that has probably been, you know, obviously, there's contextual limit to that. I'm a I'm a white guy in The UK. So there you know, like, I do not understand the full emotional impact of that.
 
 But, actually, in terms of an understanding of of what happens on the cross and how we should see Christ's crucifixion, that that I think has been the best thing I've I've ever come across. I I think it's worth mentioning as well that both the cross and the lynching tree and the crucified god are sort of coming out of this kind of liberation tradition. Right? And there's a very, very strong like, with within that tradition of liberation theology, you know, they deal with atonement a lot. So these ideas around solidarity and liberation and identifying with oppressed peoples and so on is really fundamental to how a lot of liberation theologians deal with atonement.
 
 So, you know, the classic text of liberation theology is a theology of liberation by Gustavo Gutierrez, and he has a whole chapter on this stuff where he's talking about Jesus identifying with human suffering and the cross is like a model of empathy and liberation and how there's, like, a sort of social and communal dimension to it and a critique of sort of the legalistic kind of stuff too. But I think as well, one of the things that you often have thrown back at you when you sort of critique these legalistic models is, you know, people will claim that, well, you're you're not really dealing with human sin. And, actually, a way the way a lot of these of more liberating, the sort of solidarity models kind of deal with it actually do really account for human sin as well. It's human sin that puts Jesus there way more than it is, you know, a God whose wrath needs to be appeased, and I think that's something that we need to really emphasize actually. Like, we do believe that humans sin and and are sinful.
 
 We do believe that that's what put Jesus on the cross. It's just that we don't believe in a a god who becomes a a tormentor, you know, a god who is is just a child abuser. Yeah. And the wages of sin is death, and I couldn't agree more. You see that every day.
 
 Like, every every day sin kills people all the time. Like, that's that's that's just indisputable in my mind, but how we then deal with that or respond to that, that that is revelatory of who we are, who we think ourselves to be, who we think god to be as well. Yeah. Exactly. The kind of and the cross and lynching tree deals with this.
 
 It says, yeah, it's the sin of racism. The sin of dehumanization is what throws people, you know, on the lynching tree. It's the sin of I it's complicated for the kind of political reasons that Jesus ends up crucified. But in John 11, we hear, Jesus's opponent saying, if we don't do something about this, the Romans gonna take away our temple and take away our our land. So I guess we have to do this thing.
 
 So it's this kind of sin of, you know, whether it's, like, sort of a slightly idolatrous worship or even just, I mean, people wanna hold on to what's theirs and what makes them money. Right? Like, we we see that all the time. So, yeah, I think but this is what I think is interesting. I I think that kinda liberation approach actually takes sin a lot more seriously rather than like, well, it was a thing, but it's kinda abstract, and now it's been dealt with in a kinda abstract way without actually saying, well, what are the kind of, you know, collective forces behind this sin, and and what is it that Jesus is confronting there?
 
 I mean, that's the fundamental thing, isn't it? Is that we're taking seriously the idea that there is collective sin, that there is, you know, systemic sin and that kind of thing. Whereas a lot of these model, like, sometimes you hear people who believe in some of the sort of more penal, like, penal substitution or atonement will, you know, give lip service to some of this stuff. But, actually, fundamentally, it all just boils down to what did you individually do, and did you ask god forgiveness for your individual acts? And that ain't it.
 
 You know? Yeah. And there's almost an element of some of the theories of atonement like PSA or Christmas Victor. It almost gets people off the hook who are causing some of these systemic problems. You'd be careful now of that Christus Victor bashing.
 
 Or if yeah. I think I But but it if it's if it's over and done with, then it's like, oh, it's okay that all these awful things happen because, you know, it's it's been dealt with. And it's like, well, yes and no. I think I'm gonna pause the conversation there, and in a minute, we're gonna think through some practical implications of of what we might think about this stuff. But, let's take a moment to, consider our saint of the week this week.
 
 So I have a saint of the week for you. Have any of you heard of Trevor Carter? I have not. I don't think so. Ah, good learning opportunity then.
 
 So Trevor Carter was born in Trinidad in 1930. He's got a trade unionist for a dad, and he was taught by some Marxist teachers, and both of those have got a big impact on him. That's a good start, isn't it? That that is a solid start. He he spent some time, in The US because he worked on a ship as a teenager, and he was really shocked by the, like, racism and the segregation that he saw there.
 
 And that kind of he attributed that to wanting to fight against racism for the rest of his life. He ends up coming to Britain as part of the Windrush generation, and he wrote that London at this time was a place which rejected, insulted, devalued, and discriminated against West Indians, where they encountered humiliation and had to learn to survive within a system of economic, political, and cultural subordination, which, yeah, is such a, like I don't know. I've I've found that a bit and was like, wow. That is such a, like, a great summary that really captures the totality of the experience of racism. And, you know, whilst it's not like it was then, I I think that's still a there's still a lot there to think about in terms of how racism functions in the in the modern day.
 
 His his little claim to fame is he was married to an actress called Corinne Skinner Carter, who was actually a cast member on EastEnders for some time, which is, yeah, fun fact. Her character got killed off, because Corinne kept arguing with the writers because she didn't like the direction that they were trying to take her character in, which is really great. Like, love that. Legend. And it's not hard to imagine, that there were kind of racial elements to some of some of that as well.
 
Right? Like, there's no way is that made specific, but you can imagine that. So Trevor Carter, he was a, member and activist in the communist party of Great Britain, But he was kind of an internal critic of the way that the British left approached issues of race. And he he kind of said that he felt that British leftists were keen to utilize black people to, kind of further their own ends, but weren't necessarily interested in kind of the actual experiences and struggles of of black people. And he kind of viewed this as an in inadequate form of socialism and that of colour proper socialism actually included black people and marginalised people at at its centre.
 
 He's got a hell of a cool history. He, met Castro in Cuba, taught in British Guiana for a bit. He worked as a teacher. He set up the Caribbean Teachers Association. He was involved in the creation of some government reports looking into racism in schools, offered an MBE for this work, but declined.
 
 Yes. That's right. He wrote a book about kind of the history of West Indians and British politics. But he's probably most famous for being one of the people who helped found Notting Hill Carnival, along with his cousin, Claudia Jones. And and until he died a few years ago, he was he was still involved in the carnival every year.
 
 Obviously, I've not talked a whole lot about about his faith there, and his little potted history. And it's a bit of a shame because there's not loads written about it. What we can see is that he was brought up kinda Christian, in the Christian background, but didn't appear to be practicing for most of his adult life. But then kind of in his later life, he's he's very much drawn back to Christianity, and he gets quite heavily involved in his in his local church. He does some, like, pastoral work, supports supports the pastors there.
 
 And and I think, you know, there's no point at which he takes this kind of kind of classically rigid atheist line, right, in the way that you would often expect from communist party members. Right? There is a very it doesn't really talk about religion much, but but I think looking into some of his works and what is written, you can kind of see the the influence of of that, Christianity and the fact he feels kind of drawn back to it later in life. It it suggests that there's never a full he might not be actively practicing his faith, but it's still part of him throughout his kind of years of doing this work. And the way he talks about stuff, in this kind of very clear moral tone and that sense of the common good and the dignity of all people, knowing his kind of background as a Christian and someone who was drawn back to his faith in a in a more active way, I think you can really see the kind of the way his Christianity shaped those those ideas even if and as we've talked about before, it's a real shame because I think you've got a bunch of these kind of British leftist figures who had some sort of faith, were involved in some sort of kind of Christian practice, but no one seems massively interested in finding out what that meant to them and how that looked.
 
 It's just kind of another example of it, but actually someone who is, you know, quite a major figure in the kind of anti racist British left, and, yeah, was heavily involved in in in the church in his later life without ever, you know, renouncing any of his his he was still absolutely kind of anti racist on the British left, but also, yeah, was heavily involved in the church. So that is Trevor Carter for you. That's cool. It sort of reminded me of, when we had Anthony Reddy on a while back, and he was talking about how, you know, when when he was a younger man, he sort of had two influences. One was the church, and one was the the sort of British left and and, whichever party I think it was that he had joined and how actually it was the it was the communists.
 
 He he never left the communists. He still considers himself one, but when they found out that he went to church on a Sunday, he they were very like, really looked down on him for it and really judged him for it, and they didn't bother to ask anything about that. And I think there's also a sort of racism implicit in that as well, you know, when we talk about the British left and and the racism that, you know, still exists a lot of the time within it. A lot of the left is getting better at some of that stuff now, understanding that actually we need a broader base that there are, you know, especially people coming in from abroad are, as we discussed earlier, a lot more likely to have some kind of religious faith, and you can't just dismiss that. You're not gonna get rid of it.
 
 But it was yeah. It's it's interesting because it reminded me of that kind of situation that Anthony highlighted when he was a a younger man and how it was actually it wasn't the church. There was some pushback from some people in the church, but largely, it was the communists that opposed his faith Yeah. Which, you know, I think I think we as I say, I think we do see far less of that these days now. But, yeah, you know, it's always interesting to hear how that shapes out for other people of older generations.
 
 So let's talk a little bit more about some of the atonement theory stuff we've been doing. And I think we wanna kinda move and talk a little bit about, you know we've had some interesting conversations about this, about the kind of theory of it. But, actually, why why does this matter? And I'm keen to hear from from Johnny and James as people who, actually do kinda pastor churches and have to kinda do that stuff. What is the practical implications of of taking that kind of approach to atonement that is much more about solidarity than it is about punishment.
 
I feel I've talked a lot. So You are a guest, though. You are allowed to talk. Okay. I'm not.
 
 Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
 
 Okay. I'll I'll, jump in whenever whenever you want to, obviously. And I I think it's interesting. We've we've kind of I know we've talked to quite a lot about penal substitutionary atonement. A lot of the folks that are coming to my church are I don't know.
 
 I mean, if you call them exvangelical, it's reductive, but it's helpful, I suppose. And and part of that thing is, like, well, yeah, I I love Jesus, and I love that Jesus is represented to me. And I actually love a lot of God, but it does seem some of the the bits I'm expected to swallow are difficult. And so saying, you know, well, I have to believe in this God that kinda needs punishment and wants to punish Jesus. That's really hard.
 
 And it and it shapes everything because I I forget who it I think it's Chet Myers. But one of their comments is that if you think that is violence necessary? Like, it's ultimately the question. Right? Like, could God have brought everyone back to themselves without violence?
 
 And in my mind, absolutely. Like, I I think that I think that if violence is necessary, then in a way violence becomes good or holy in some way. And as like a pacifist, I I don't think that's the case. I think violence is where creativity ends, and I think our god is completely creative and and so much more creative than we can imagine that we are created in that creator's image, and so we are born to create as well. And so, violence is is the exact opposite of that.
 
 And so giving people kind of permission, like, so much of it is just letting people know. Like, yeah, the reason why that's hard for you is because it's really disjointed. Like, we're just forcing people to do this cognitive deference. We're forcing people to essentially gaslight themselves that, yes, god is love and love beyond all imaginable comprehension that you could ever do. But also, punishment's really good, and god delights in punishing their son so that you it's it's really hard for people.
 
 And so you get to give people that permission and say, but even one of the other things about the evangelical space is that evangelicals don't they they don't have any theology of history. They don't really know anything that happened more than, like, forty years ago. Right? They they that's just generally how they see things. And and so you're saying, you know what?
 
 We starting some beef between you and, like, we're, like, paying into, like, more beef between you and the evangelicals. I mean, like, but I think but I don't think they're but I'm my my response is, like, well, show me otherwise. Right? Like, I'm not it's not I'm not meaning to be rude. I'm just saying that, like, I I again, pro evangelicalism is great.
 
 I'm I'm all for, William Wilberforce. Right? Like, that's that's cool. That early evangelicalism was like, we should be more social justice y, which which is amazing. And then it goes shit on other things, though, to be fair.
 
 We will force. I'll go back a bit further than that. Give him a win, Adam. Yeah. No.
 
 Look. He he had one win. Right? And it wasn't just him. And How much slavery have you abolished, Adam?
 
 Is it zero? I have It's one zero. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 All that abolishes. As as as an anarchist, I abolish the slavery of the state that I hold in my heart every single day. Okay? So No thoughts, no bad times. And then and then I'm sure the, the excellent people of Africa are thankful for that, Adam.
 
 But Also also, you are the worst pacifist I've ever met. I know what happened on my birthday party a week ago. That that yes. That that But but not here to litigate past beef between the two of you. Right?
 
 I, yeah. I didn't say I was a good pacifist. I'm like, that's No. You said you were a pacifist. No.
 
 Yes. I put the fist in pacifist. That's right. I I think the other thing is even, talking at different atonement theologies. So all your ideas or analogies.
 
 You know, one really popular one from the first few centuries of Christianity, sometimes kind of sometimes random theory, sometimes Christ as victor, sometimes kind of, there's lots of dramatic theory. It gets kind of brought into different things. But this idea that essentially, Jesus is, tricks his way into hell by becoming a man. So Jesus tricks his way into hell. And once he gets to hell, hell goes, we can't cope with this at all anymore.
 
 And then Jesus blows up hell from the inside, basically. And there's all this, like, amazing imagery that is born of that. This is very popular in the orthodox tradition still today. One of the great orthodox icons is, Jesus with his arms stretched out, with a man in one hand and a woman, another, and he's standing over the shattered gates of hell, and on the man is supposed to be Adam, and the woman's supposed to be Eve. So the idea is that Jesus has gone to the very, very depths of hell and liberated everyone, all the way down to the very first, the first people that ended up there.
 
 And, again, it's it's difficult. Right? This is very popular idea for a long while. I think it's a very creative idea. I believe the gates of hell won't overcome us, and that seems to be a good thing.
 
 First Peter three talks about, Jesus proclaiming to the dead and setting the captives free. So it there there is again, ultimately, the thing to remember is that all of these there is biblical evidence for, like, 12 different theories. There's you can and you can do that, and then you have to kinda build your way out from there. But I think that kind of encouragement of creativity, I I know that and even and I I I I sometimes go harder on my universalism than other times from the front. But just kind of giving people that invitation to know, like, yeah, those Jesus hasn't forgotten anyone, that that again, I think that's and that's a real encouragement to people.
 
 And I, and I think it's true. So there's there's that too. Right? The the the kind of, well, I know that Jesus is love and God is love and that love is love beyond my comprehension, but also 99% of all humanity burns forever in torment. It's like Yeah.
 
 Yeah. That's quite a stretch, actually. I have to work quite hard to, like, reconcile those two pieces, and me going like, well or you don't because, I mean, this is not podcast about hell today, but lots of those proof texts are pretty tenuous as well. So I think the thing about the kind of Jesus storm in hell and overcoming it is whatever theological value it has, it's kinda just cool as fuck as a story. Like It's just dope.
 
 Yeah. Exactly. Like There's, there's a bunch of, like, po so do you know Chrysostom's Pascal homily? That's like a pretty nerdy thing to bring out. So, okay, sixteen hundred years ago, Chrysostom, excellent guy, problematic, aren't they all?
 
 But considered to be the greatest preacher ever, gave what is considered to be the greatest sermon ever, and this greatest sermon ever was so good that the Orthodox church said, we shall preach this every year until Christ's return, which they do. And it's and it's that good. I'm just gonna quote it. You can cut it if you don't like it. But, it it yeah.
 
 This is the end of the greatest sermon ever in my mind. Let no one fear death, for the death of our savior has set us free. Jesus has destroyed death by enduring death. Jesus destroyed hell when he descended into it. He put hell into an uproar even as it tasted his flesh.
 
 Hell is in an uproar for it's destroyed. Hell is in an uproar for it's annihilated. Hell is in an uproar for now it is made captive. Hell took a body and discovered God. He hell took on earth and encountered heaven.
 
 Hell took what it saw and was overcome by what it did not see. Oh, death, where is your sting? Oh, death, hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you, oh, death, are annihilated. Christ is risen, and the evil ones are cast down.
 
 Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life is liberated. Christ is risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead. To him be the glory and power forever. Like, best sermon ever.
 
 I don't know. Fair play to the orthodox church. Like, you're probably not gonna talk about why I bother you. Yeah. Exactly.
 
 The other thing I wanted to, kind of flag up a little bit was, I guess thinking about that penal substitution atonement and how it kind of deifies punishment. Mhmm. Yeah. And and I think actually thinking kind of politically as we are want to do occasionally on this podcast, actually the way that impacts, I guess, our understandings of crime and punishment, not the book, the concept. And, you know, like, actually, I I kinda lead towards a kind of abolitionist perspective.
 
 And, like, actually, something like substitution atonement makes the logic of, you know, imprisonment of of punishment for crime to be God's logic. That is how how God operates. And I don't think it's kind of I don't think anyone ever says that directly. Right? But actually, if if you hear in church that how God operates is that he has to punish people who do things wrong and that punishment is, you know, actually up to the point of death, then actually, you're kind of primed to accept the logics of, you know, of of kinda castle logic.
 
 Right? That actually crime is about individual failing that needs to be punished, not about systemic issues that need to be dealt with. And and I think it's, you know, actually a really big part of, I think, this kind of understanding of Christianity underpins so much of British culture even with people who maybe aren't Christian and don't, you know, believe that stuff. Actually, it's so woven into it's kind of the way we are brought up to think in a lot of ways about about punishment and about, yeah, how we deal with people who do stuff wrong that it is, I think, quite politically impactful in ways that we don't always realize. Yeah.
 
 Absolutely. And, yeah, I I should have spoken more to that. The as you say, yeah, it deifies violence. It says that violence is good. It says that punishment is good.
 
 Punishment becomes inherently good, and we only need to look to the evils of, the kind of prison systems and and the injustices that happen to get people there in in all the different ways. But, yes, you say, if you do inherently believe that, well, punishment is good, then then that changes things. Like, that means that you're gonna act differently the way that you treat people, the way you treat your children, the way that you vote, because you think, well, if punishment is good, that changes things. We look at kind of the way that parenting has changed. Right?
 
 But a lot of parenting was based on the idea that punishment is a good thing, and I think consequences are good. I think we should learn the consequences and everything. But my, yeah, there's there's people out there, like, my elders now who are in their sixties, and they were saying, again, they were quite heavily influenced by stuff like focus on the family, which I realize isn't quite a big thing in England as it is over here. But Praise the lord. My the proudest moment of my entire life was getting a cease and desist from a focus on the family, by the way.
 
 There's there's nothing's really atop that. And I think that there's been, yeah, there's been some really interesting work done in, Beyond Retribution is a great book by Chris Marshall. It looking again, surely punishment isn't the end of thing. Tim Gorringe has a good book on it as well. And Executing Grace by Shane Claiborne is really readable and really lovely and talks about the problems of punishment and the death penalty.
 
 So, there's lots of interesting reading on that kind of thing. It's nice to hear Tim Gorringe getting a shout out, one of our former professors. Is he? Oh, good for you. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. Well, Ben and I both went to Exeter. I I did my undergrad I never met him, though. He he he was, like, mostly retired by the time I was there. But yeah.
 
 Yeah. I suppose he was, wasn't he? Yeah. No. I did I did my undergrad dissertation largely on Tim Gorringe in engagement with someone else and then did quite a lot of my master's dissertation, and engagement with him as well.
 
 But, but, yeah, he's not as well known as perhaps he deserves to be. You don't hear he's re he's written a lot of books. Yeah. And he's yeah. You don't hear his name too much.
 
 So I think we're kinda heading towards time, but I I wanted to try and, you know, we we occasionally do this thing where we try and do something positive because, as as lefties, we are constantly whining and complaining about things. Naval gazing about how bunch of white folks on a podcast. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah. So, I don't know how far along, you two are, Johnny and James, about, getting your getting your sermon in place for Easter Sunday. But I I thought I'd I'd get, you guys and Adam as well if you want to, you know, just because you're not responsible for anyone doesn't mean you can't, you know. But, maybe give us life. I have a dog.
 
 You know? I'm not responsible for her. Yeah. Not so much yourself, but the dog you're responsible for. Yeah.
 
 No. Actually, give us, you know, maybe, like, a minute or possibly two if I'm feeling generous of, you know, actually, what is what is what is the message of Easter Sunday? What what is the kind of big hit of you know? And it doesn't have to be the main message, but what what would you what would you want people to kind of take from Easter Sunday right now, given where you are, where the world is, all the rest of it? And I did warn you about this.
 
 So this is a horrible thing to spring on you. But, yeah, I think I'm really interested to hear anyone can start with what what would be your like. Here is the here is the good news for Easter Sunday that I want people to take away. I mean, I've got on my whiteboard, Circassian, write ideas and things for sermons and shit on there. And I've got, Nina Simone feeling good, for Easter Sunday.
 
 And I feel like that if you imagine God singing that song, then you get close, I think, to Easter Sunday. And then I also have next to it as well, which is for Palm Sunday for Sunday, is celebration equals protest. So I almost think that those two ideas of celebration being protest and Nina Simone feeling good. That's very interesting. That's so much more creative than me.
 
 Oh, look at that. We're we're doing a series on the joy and sorrow of Jesus, and so I'm I'm talking on the sorrow, the crucifixion, this, or sorry, the on Palm Sunday, ironically, depending on when this comes out. And then, of course, Easter is joy joy joy. And it's really just about a a joy that is so much beyond our comprehension, and we kind of we love to put this in boxes. And and as I say, like, well and the good news about Easter is that a select few people throughout history because of this punishment metered about on this poor man two thousand years ago don't have to burn forever.
 
 And what a what a terrible piece of good news that is. And so, like, the the true goodness of all of this is this is kinda just radical, we see this radical, solidarity with Christ on the cross and then this, like, radical redefinition of everything in the resurrection that, that even death itself is swallowed up in victory. And that's quite a hard thing to to kinda get hold of, and I and I understand that it is. But I think the world is a difficult place to be right now and less difficult for me than it is for most people, admittedly, but really looking forward to all those powers of hell being disarmed, and I trust that Jesus is like that. I think, one thing I do think about is that we still, people are out the line of Judah.
 
 Jesus is this big powerful, lion and everything. And, of course, the only time in scripture we see the lion of Judah is in Revelation five, behold, I saw a lamb as if it was slain. And we constantly want the lion. Like, we want lie we want Aslan. We want the lion to run through, crush your enemies, smash them to bits, and and and Jesus shows us the lamb over and over and over and over again.
 
 And it's this it's this invitation into a kinda a different kind of power, a different kind of love, a different kind of welcome that, yeah, it doesn't even yeah. That but goes beyond so much else. So I I do like to think on that on Easter that we are where where is it we're embracing the lamb? Where is it we're letting go of the lion? And and that's okay.
 
 And, Adam, what are you gonna tell Luca? So, we we have a tradition on this podcast of, you trying to get us Oh, no. You're gonna do it again. And and and me kind of still managing to turn it around and and make it really depressing. So I'm getting in in in true bread and rosaries fashion.
 
 I'm going to, I'm gonna do that and then try and snatch it back from the from the core from the from the jaws of defeat. So From the jaws of hell. And that's a good Christmas victor's message, by the way, that when it all looks as if it were Yeah. Exactly. So so what I would say is we live in a time when a lot of people are scared.
 
 There's a lot of bad stuff going on. There's a lot of fascists and sort of far right people taking control in various countries. You know, Trump is, in charge in The US. Like, it's it's a it's a tricky time. And I think that, Jesus, I wanna go one step further.
 
 So I always I always you know, when we talk about protest, protest is really important. But so often, actually, it's not protest that that actually gets us where we need to be. Anarchists often say direct action gets the goods, and actually, I think the cross is direct action. Right? And if we are to overcome the forces of evil, you know, the forces of fascism, all of that bad stuff that is happening in the world today, we have to take Matthew 16 verse 24 seriously.
 
 Right? We have to take up our crosses and follow Jesus. And the only way we're gonna be able to do that, the only way direct action is going to be able to defeat fascism, the only way the kingdom of God is going to break into the world is if we take up our crosses and follow Jesus, is if we take direct action collectively, if we take the gospel seriously and follow Jesus. And and it can be done. Right?
 
 This is this is where I sort of claw it back from from the edge is to say that we've seen time and time again in history that we can do it. Right? Fascism is a loser ideology for losers that always loses. Right? And it will lose.
 
 It will lose again, and it will lose badly. But it will only lose if we take the gospel seriously, if we take up that call for solidarity and for direct action seriously and take up our cross and follow Jesus. Yeah. I might steal that actually. That's but I think that's better than what I had.
 
 So And finally, my message for Easter Sunday is, of course, to stick a caramel egg in the freezer and try licking it out. You should seal that, James. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 And for some reason, no one has asked me to preach anywhere on Easter Sunday. I don't know why. I mean, that truly is the gospel. Thank you very much, everyone. James, thank you so much for joining us.
 
 That was, yeah, really interesting. Thank you very much. I think we could have probably spent four hours just chatting about I do apologize. No. No.
 
 No. It's really it's good to have someone who's really thought this stuff through and not just had a few passing thoughts and garbled them out. So yeah. No. It's, it's been fantastic.
 
 If people wanna, kinda you mentioned, that you've got your own podcast. So if you wanna find that or keeps keep up with you, plug away. Oh, plug away. I'm, I'm the pastor of Wellspring Worship Center. We have we record our sermons.
 
 There's, like, 8,000 Wellspring churches we've discovered, so I don't know. Try to find the one with me in it. I think it's Wellspring messages. The podcast I do with, Daniel Strickland is called the right side up podcast with James Shaw and Daniel Strickland. I don't know.
 
 You you if you wanna talk to me about so I think my Instagram handle is James Scholl. If you wanna talk about the stuff we talked about, I love talking about this stuff. That's a lot of my life. So, yeah, I'm always really happy to do that. Next time we'll get Danielle on.
 
 I heard that we got the wrong person on this. Yeah. I I'm the less interesting person. Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Like, for for a long time, it was the Danielle Strickland podcast, and which is fair. And then actually it was after the Ravi Zachariah stuff broke. One of her friends is like, why are you naming stuff after yourself? And she was like, yeah. That's a good point.
 
 And then so then she changed it to, the Infinitum podcast, which is like her organization that does, you know, it's basically the thing she chucks money into. But, focus on the family, have, Infinitum Living podcast, which is why we got the the cease and desist saying, and it basically said, like, we are worried that, people will think that you're representing us. And so, like And I'd be worried about that for you guys. I know. I know.
 
 I know. To be. The our podcast, like, at at the end of that, I, well, the start of our first book is like, we wanna be clear that, in perpetuity, like, until the death of the universe, throughout every known universe, we are not to be associated with focus on the family. That would be a hell of a, like, joint episode, wouldn't it? I know.
 
 Debate me. We will, we will stick links to the correct Wellspring Church in the past in in the in the description so that people don't end up yeah. Yeah. Focus on the family for balance. Yeah.
 
 If you wanna. Yeah. No and no. If you wanna focus on a very nuclear hetero hetero normative family, then yes. Adam, where in the world can people find you?
 
 You can find me most places, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, bluesky@commiexian. And you can also catch, an upcoming article in Shibboleth magazine. Ben has also written one as well. That will be out. I think it's due to be out at the April, so around the time that this podcast is coming out, I think, but keep an eye out for that.
 
 Yeah. Johnny, I suppose as usual, if people wanna contact you, they have to walk the streets of Norfolk and find you. Basically. Yeah. Or the beaches.
 
 I I often walk the dog Yeah. At the beach. So, Yeah. Yeah. It's actually Marsh, isn't it?
 
 Just like swimming through bogs to find Johnny. That's why Magal loves it. Yeah. Yeah. You can find all of our stuff on breadandrosaries.com, including the Patreon if you wanna chuck us a few pennies.
 
 Thank you very much for listening, everyone. If you wanna get in contact, contact details are on the website. So we love feedback, suggestions, and criticism as long as it is not personal to me. Thank you everyone for joining us, and we will see you next time. Bye bye.
 
 Bye. See you later.