Ep.81 - Mullally, Manchester, and the Met: A Mindgrapes Special

There was just so much happening that Ben and Adam had to do what they do best: Mindgrapes. This episode ranges from the immediate horror of the Manchester synagogue attack, to how the event has been politicised. They also talk about how much of a change the appointment of Sarah Mullally as Archbishop of Canterbury actually represents. Finally, Blue Labour 2: Electric Boogaloo?

Shibboleth magazine 

Transcript

Please note, this transcript may not be 100% accurate

(0:00:00) We have a slightly packed Mindgrapes this week. Can I hear a Louka in the background there? Yeah, sorry. She's chasing rabbits in her sleep. Yeah, exactly. She's on the bed right in front of me. Let me just awaken her from her. Can you shut up? You're a dog. Catch them. Yeah, Charlie does the same thing as a bit of rabbit chasing in her sleep.

(0:00:27) But I don't know about it. Charlie's very considerate. She would never do it during the night, really. Is that another little wheeze? No, that's the cockerel. Crowing.

(0:00:46) Hello and welcome to Bread and Rosaries, the left Christian podcast that thinks too much is happening too often. I'm Ben Molyneux-Hetherington and I'm joined by Adam Spiers. Adam, is there too much happening in the world? Can we just stop it? Can we pause things? I can't. Let's get off. I can't keep up. Everything is happening constantly and it makes my brain hurt. I liked it when there was nothing. The old nothing days, remember?

(0:01:11) Oh, yeah, yeah. Before God spoke, you know, when he was just chilling. Oh, that was good, wasn't it? Yeah. There's no crime. Make of that what you will. You could leave your house unlocked, couldn't you? Because it didn't exist.

(0:01:32) Roughly once every five episodes we get Stuart. I'm off to see him in November. Very excited. Where are you going? Newcastle. Don't dox me. That's where I saw him years ago. I saw him in Newcastle, though, a few years ago. He was great.

(0:01:48) Big up Newcastle. I was on holiday, sadly, but the city as a whole told Tommy Robinson to get fucked. Yeah! The Fash arrived, and they were very outnumbered by multiple protests across the city. Yeah, a real defeat for the attempt to kind of...

(0:02:09) build on some of the uh for those of you who don't know there's been a regular migrant hotel protests in newcastle that have been fairly well opposed as well um but there was an attempt to build some far-right uh momentum in this city based on on that and uh they got fucked so happy days always good to see fascists getting fucked and not not in the ways that they want as well yeah yeah uh no they yeah the um

(0:02:36) the the City United very effectively to tell them exactly where to go so yeah a big big win for Newcastle the other weekend um not not the football um of which we of course do not speak due to their despicable Saudi ownership I don't think they won either did they no they've been doing all right but not not not brilliantly so yeah they've not had a great start to the season have they but anyway yeah yeah absolutely not

(0:03:01) Unless we're going to be talking about the mighty Clapton Community Football Club. Yeah, yeah. Have you seen that they're doing a fuck the FA Cup game? Amazing. In protest of the FA's treatment of trans women. Oh, nice. Yeah, very cool. Respect that. Big up to them.

(0:03:22) See, even just like randomly chit-chatting, there's already so much happening. And that is today's episode. We are going for the unheralded, but I would say legendary episode approach of pure Mindgrapes. We have a lot of things to talk about. What else is on my mindgrapes?

(0:03:44) Exactly. And the answer is too much is on our mindgrapes this week. I'm going to just play that little sound constantly, I think. Yeah, in between every segment, everything we do. Yep, all of it. What else is on my mindgrapes? Sorry, just whenever you talk, I'm just going to...

(0:04:06) That's going to get old real fast. We want to talk about an interesting article we saw. We want to talk about the new Archbishop of Canterbury. Ooh, how exciting. And first of all, we want to talk... Not even acknowledging that. But first of all, we want to talk about something much more serious.

(0:04:28) Earlier this week, there was an attack on a synagogue in Manchester that was horrific, a horrible piece of anti-Semitic violence that is completely shocking and appalling. And there has been a lot of stuff that has come out of that, and I don't really know where to start.

(0:04:51) But I think we should probably start with the fact that when we say there is no situation the police can't make worse by their presence, this has turned out to be a pretty impressive example of that. Yeah. Yeah, it's not gone well. I mean, to be fair, the accounts are saying that, with the exception of the fact that they killed a guy, that they acted...

(0:05:19) I wasn't there. I wasn't there. I didn't see it. I don't know. All I know is someone killed a guy with a knife and

(0:05:29) And I believe that the police were under the impression potentially, because he had like a fake bomb on his chest as well, or on a belt. So they probably were concerned about that, which is why they would have had. But I will also say that there has, particularly in recent times, we're seeing a lot more police shootings of people whose only weapon is a knife. And I think that that's...

(0:06:00) that's clearly not a good way to deal with this. I think in this case, maybe there's an argument that, you know, that that's what they had to do. I'm not sure I agree, but yes, they shot through a stray bullet, went through the door of the synagogue and struck two people. I think one of whom died. Yeah. Really not a great look.

(0:06:21) So, yeah, two people died, one of whom was shot by the police, one of whom was killed by the person in question. Yeah, obviously like a tragedy, but also, yeah, not...

(0:06:36) Not a fantastic thing to have happened from a police perspective, particularly in the week where the least surprising revelation of all time came out that the Met Police remains pretty institutionally racist. Yeah, I mean, I, for one, am shocked that there's still institutional racism in the Met Police. Yeah, and of course, Mark Rowley is saying, oh, I'm not going to resign. I wish he would. I mean, look, no police officer, particularly no...

(0:07:05) no head of the Met is ever going to be a goodie. But Mark Rowley, he's so bad. He's so bad. You know, some of the stuff that he's done, I mean, a big part of the reason Palestine Action was prescribed was because of Mark Rowley.

(0:07:22) So not a good guy. He's never going to deal with institutional racism because apart from anything, you can't. You cannot have a state-run... You can't have a police force that is...

(0:07:38) not institutionally racist, because that just gets to the absolute heart of what a capitalist state, particularly a Western capitalist state, is. You mentioned Palestine action there, so it's worth talking about the speed at which the Metropolitan Police use this as an excuse to attack the Defend Our Juries,

(0:07:56) protest basically said look we need all our manpower out defending synagogues amongst other things this Saturday when there was a plan to defend our juries protest so we'd really like it if you didn't protest please

(0:08:13) to which Defend Our Juries put out a great statement in which they basically said, well, actually, there's no need to protest us. We're not doing anything particularly dangerous. We're not doing anything wrong, really. We're just sitting out with some signs saying that genocide is bad.

(0:08:30) And they continued and there was, I think, 400 and something arrests, wasn't there? Yeah, just under 500, I think, yeah. But it was amazing the speed at which the Manchester tragedy got politicised, really. Which is funny because a lot of the time we're told we're not allowed to politicise events like this, stuff going on. But the speed at which...

(0:08:58) it became a stick to both defend our juries with, but also quite a lot of right-wing public figures essentially drawing a direct line from Palestine activism to this killing in Manchester.

(0:09:16) They can't seem to, and I'm being kind by saying that they can't. It's probably a case of they won't see what they themselves are doing by demonizing these protests. They won't see that they are creating an environment. Let's be serious, right? If you go to a synagogue and...

(0:09:41) attack and murder worshippers there like that the blame lies with you right you have made a decision that is where the blame lies however you know terrorist attacks don't take place in a vacuum right yeah um there's a whole context

(0:10:00) And a big part of that context is that this country still sells weapons through the global market to Israel that are being used to murder Palestinians.

(0:10:15) You can't get away from that. And so, you know, what you end up with is a group of people who are participating in the most barbaric crimes imaginable, moralizing and drawing a moral equivalence between people protesting a genocide and

(0:10:39) and someone undertaking a terrorist act against Jewish people. And I think that's disgusting and incredibly dangerous in a time of growing far-right extremism. Yeah, absolutely. Because we know that there was not widespread public support for Israel and Israel's actions. So actually, you are potentially...

(0:11:04) potentially amongst certain people making them more likely to say, okay, this is what we're doing now. And I hope that doesn't happen. Like I really, and you know, fingers crossed it won't, but like it is a wildly irresponsible thing to be doing as, as well as deeply antisemitic because it presumes that Israel is identified with British Jewry. And that is not, not true. In fact, we're not in America, right? Uh,

(0:11:33) The American Jewish community, there is some exceptions, but broadly speaking, is pro-Israel, right? There are plenty of exceptions, and it's changing rapidly, and there's quite an age differentiation there, but the majority...

(0:11:47) of American Jews are pro-Israel. In this country, it is a much more divided thing. A bit more complicated, yeah. Yeah, it is simply not the case. And obviously that makes no difference in some ways, but actually it's not even like we're talking about...

(0:12:07) a population that has been vocally in favor of Israel's actions, right? So to say, oh, these people were attacked because of anti-Palestine action presumes that Israel represents all Jews in this country. And that is a wildly anti-Semitic thing. And just because it's done in defense of Israel doesn't make it any less anti-Semitic.

(0:12:32) And the thing is, it's something that Israel does all the time, right? The Israeli government and ministers will try to make out that they are the global voice of all Jews, basically, and that any disagreement with the state of Israel is fundamentally anti-Semitic.

(0:12:54) But Tommy Robinson makes out that he's the voice of white British people. And I think we all get the idea, or most of us at least, that that's untrue and dangerous to just accept on face value, right? More and more people disagree with you on that, though.

(0:13:09) Just because a person or a group claims to represent a larger group does not inherently mean they do. I think it's just dangerous, it's irresponsible, and it's anti-Semitic. It also takes the focus away from what's going on in Palestine. Now, of course, we've got this announcement over the last few days that Hamas have agreed to some of the terms, I think, that they're going to release the hostages and so on. I think there's

(0:13:39) Donald Trump is going to bring peace to the Middle East. Yeah, but it's such a... Have you read the deal? Have you read what he wants to do? Not in depth. It's a terrible deal. It's a terrible deal because basically it's going to put Donald Trump as the head of this group who are going to be administering what's happening in Gaza with Tony Blair essentially as his... Yeah, god king of Gaza. Yeah, yeah.

(0:14:03) It turns Gaza and Palestine more broadly, actually, into, well, I was going to say a client state. It's not even that because they won't even recognize statehood. And look, you know, as an anarchist, I'm not that fussed about statehood.

(0:14:19) But I am fussed about self-determination, right? And this is not that. This is not that. And this is going to... God forbid this. You know, I really hope that I'm wrong, but I'm not. This is going to breed more and more violence, ongoing violence. Nothing's going to change. Probably Israel will...

(0:14:42) stop stuff for a bit and then they'll return. Yeah. So it's a classic pattern. I think as well in this, one thing I want to bring up in a related topic as well is, you know, the brutality of Israel. We're also seeing it in how they're treating some of the people who they kidnapped from the Summed flotilla. It's come out today that they have essentially tortured Greta Thunberg,

(0:15:08) forced her to wave Israeli flags, kiss an Israel flag, starved her, kept water from her, and pulled her across the floor by her hair. And there are multiple accounts of this from different Sumed people who were imprisoned with her, who were members of the Sumed flotilla. Yeah.

(0:15:32) I don't think we have any reason to believe Israel when they say that this is not happening. I think we have, you know, they are consistently lying. We know what they're like. I think we have every reason to believe the independent...

(0:15:48) of people who are imprisoned with her. So let's really hope that obviously Greta and the other summer activists are out as soon as possible and that there's some kind of accountability there. A final thing I want to talk about, and I want to be really careful about this because this is quite a tricky subject, but there has been some...

(0:16:17) increased chat about jewish people feeling unsafe and whilst i would i totally understand that if you're a jewish person that sees a synagogue attack happen i totally understand feeling unsafe and i do think there has been for a number of years now actually an increased or at least i have increasingly noticed certain levels of anti-semitism becoming more acceptable and

(0:16:46) Whether that's just my awareness or really happening, I'm not sure. However, I do not think that it is necessarily reasonable for a Jewish person to feel unsafe because of their Jewish faith any more in the last couple of years than it has been over the last 30, say.

(0:17:16) And that is not to dismiss some of the experiences and stuff that's gone on, or certainly to dismiss the horror and severity of that attack. But we are talking about one, as far as we can tell, pretty unconnected rogue terrorist attack.

(0:17:34) on a synagogue that has happened horrific completely unacceptable and i'm sure terrifying to to that community but not part of a broader pattern as far as we can see i think um

(0:17:50) Yeah, I mean, there have been other attacks on synagogues and Jewish people, deadly attacks on synagogues and Jewish people over the last couple of years in other parts of the world. And I think it's definitely true to say that there's growing anti-Semitism in this country, you know, in large part because of people having stupid takes on the whole Israel-Palestine situation. Yeah.

(0:18:17) I think you're broadly right. Look, this is actually a trend that we see in the wider population as well, where people have increased fear of crime when actually violent crime levels are reducing and have been reducing for decades at this point. That's the facts of the matter. And I think we have to be careful with that because fear of crime is something that is used to control you.

(0:18:43) right um and is something that can you know fear in and of itself is a thing that can make you make decisions and form opinions that are dangerous for other people and potentially yourself as well um so i think i think there's a really important distinction to be made as you do between actual crime and fear of crime and by crime really i'm talking here about violent crime i you know

(0:19:12) I don't really have – I don't really care about the concept of law. I think the fact that, you know, we have as a British value the rule of law, I think, is bollocks. So, you know, come and get me, Prevent, I guess. But, yeah, I think the question for me is why –

(0:19:33) is there a narrative of fear being pushed? And I think it's pretty clear that actually there is a political agenda behind trying to scare British Jewry. I think that is absolutely what is happening. I think it's not been completely successful at all, but I do think understanding

(0:20:00) Understandably, that fear has spread through some of that community in a way that has probably had negative political effects. I've been to quite a lot of the marches in London at this point. And one of the things that's really struck me is I think there are only something like 350,000 people

(0:20:23) Jewish people in this country all told I'm probably wrong there but there's not it's not a high number of Jewish people in this country no

(0:20:33) the Jewish bloc at these marches is considerably larger than the Christian bloc, which is both an indictment on Christianity in this country, apart from those who actually attend these things and those who are sympathetic to it but can't attend for whatever reason. But it also says a lot about

(0:20:56) Judaism and Jewish people in this country that actually so many of them are still connected to this Jewish sense of liberation and solidarity and you know all of these good things that are found in the Jewish tradition that should be you know lifted up and and

(0:21:17) shown to be you know an authentic i i would say you know because i can't speak for judaism but an authentic expression of religious faith in this country yeah absolutely and i think you know i think the reason we can speak about this to some extent being very careful not to speak for the jewish community is because of recognizing the same dynamics that play with the christian community right and

(0:21:43) And actually that Christian nationalism stuff preys on creating a sense of fear that Christian identity is being erased, that Christianity is being put down, and that is being used for political radicalisation. And I think the bad type of political radicalisation, obviously. And I think I can see some of the same attempt being made towards the Jewish community. I mean, look, the Jewish community by and large in this country is, to use a word, the right loves.

(0:22:13) integrated into society very well. And so a lot of the issues that we would find more broadly are also going to be reflected amongst Jewish people as well. And things like fear of crime and that kind of thing are also a part of that, as well as some of the more positive stuff as well. Yeah, absolutely. Right, should we move on to our second big bit of mindgrapes news that we need to cover? There's more? Yep.

(0:22:44) The Church of England has fallen. They've put a woman in charge, Adam. A woman? Yeah. Yeah, right. I really want to open with this because we're now going to spend the next five to ten minutes shit-talking Sarah Mullally, probably. Yeah.

(0:23:02) So let's just start by being really clear. It's good that they've got a woman in charge. It's good that that final glass ceiling has been broken. Has it solved misogyny in the Church of England? Not even a little bit, but it's good. Right. And we can, I think all agree. If you listen to this podcast and you think that they should only have a male priests, bishops, whatever, um,

(0:23:29) Change your mind or fuck off. No, no, Ben. Welcome. You might take a while to change your mind, but we encourage you to keep on listening and engaging and eventually come to the correct communist position. Yeah. But I think it's pretty obvious that the reason that they have put a woman in charge...

(0:24:00) is not because they really had a feminist agenda, but because that then becomes the story, and they, God help them, do need a good news story around the church at the minute. And I think it's quite cynical, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, maybe, but I just don't think they have much of a choice, to be honest. Like, I think it kind of had to be a woman. Yeah, but again, like, is that because, you know, there is a kind of sense of...

(0:24:27) it's absurd, it hasn't happened, it's time, it needs to happen, there's all these qualified women, or is it because all the men are fucked up so badly that you need to give someone else a go? Like, it's, yeah...

(0:24:41) I don't know. Possibly. Possibly. I mean, look, let's say this. Sarah Mullally, I've met her like once, I think, briefly. She wouldn't remember me at all. But she used to be Bishop of Crediton. Which is in Devon, by the way. Yeah, yeah. And is in the Diocese of Exeter. So it was a suffragan...

(0:25:02) bishopric in the Diocese of Exeter and I lived in Exeter. That's an assistant bishop for those of you who don't know these things. I learnt this the other day. Not a bad bishop. A suffering bishop. You have to suffer from the bishopric. That's all of them. There's no distinction there. Look, I think anyone in that kind of position is basically going to be a nice person with a probably relatively well-meaning, well-intentioned heart. Fine. Fine.

(0:25:32) But what I will say about Sarah Mullally is if you were going to pick a woman, which as I've already said, I think they kind of had to, this is about as uninspired a choice as you could have picked. There were other people. So Julie Dekani Francis, I think is how you say her name, was hotly tipped as well. There were a couple of others, I think, Rose Hudson Wilkin.

(0:26:02) These were considered by Church of England terms to have a slightly more radical edge. They're also women of colour as well. And I think maybe there's an element of the Church of England just thinking, oh, no, well, we can't have our first be a woman and like a black person. Yeah.

(0:26:28) So I think there's some of that. But also one thing I will also say is that, you know, Rose Hudson-Wilkin, I like her well enough. I know people who don't for, you know, their own reasons, but she's all right. But one of her roles was to serve in the House of Commons as a chaplain. So she's deeply embedded in the state, in all of these things. By choice, it should be said. It's not like, you know, certain...

(0:26:57) certain bishoprics where you are just put into the House of Lords because that's part of the role, right? She chose to do that. Julie Ducani Francis, who I really like, I've got a lot of time for her, played a role in the coronation of Charles Windsor. So, you know, if you are getting that high, chances are very few bishops...

(0:27:20) who are going to be anything even approaching what we might like to see in that role, right? So, you know, I wasn't holding my breath for, you know, a raving anarchist to become Archbishop of Canterbury anytime soon. Although, you know, in his early days, there was a hint of some of that about Rowan Williams. Yeah, we've talked about how Rowan Williams is the biggest disappointment. Yeah, yeah. I still get disappointed thinking about that, yeah.

(0:27:50) But the point is, you know, there were options who were a bit more interesting, a bit more radical, I think, and they just chose what was considered the safe pair of hands, which is not a surprise when you consider that the chair of the group who appoints the, ultimately chooses the archbishop, is the former head of MI5. Yeah, that's a spook. Yeah, yeah, really good stuff. I think the impression that I got from it is that it's not a decision.

(0:28:20) It's just kicking a camp down the road for a couple of different reasons. One, Sarah Mullally is 63, and I'm not being ageist, but I think it's 68 is the age at which Canterbury is meant to retire, right?

(0:28:33) No, 70 is all... 70. Yeah, and then you get another year after that before you actually... So you're maxing out at seven years, which is actually quite a short amount of time for an Archbishop of Canterbury. It's not enough time to actually make major change. Even if she wanted to, and I suspect she doesn't, that is an old pick for Archbishop of Canterbury. One of the reasons that she wasn't necessarily considered to be a frontrunner

(0:28:58) originally was because of her age and it kind of feels like a bit of a placeholder particularly when you consider that she's currently Bishop of London which by all accounts is considered to be the third Archbishop really and essentially given that they've been keeping the Archbishop of York locked away in a cupboard so I don't ask them to resign anymore she has been for all intents and purposes the

(0:29:25) leader of the Church of England for a little while now, right? Certainly in the public eye, she has been the most senior, prominent bishop. So she's quite...

(0:29:39) associated with the Welby regime. I don't think she's the same as Welby. She, I think, technically qualifies as more of a liberal, whereas Welby was seen as more of a conservative. He became more liberal, though, to be fair to him. I mean, I'm a critic of Welby, but... Yeah, yeah. I don't think it's really a... I think it's a continuity pick in a way that I think is not necessarily...

(0:30:00) what anyone wanted i don't think anyone wanted continuity really but yeah it just feels like pushing it further down the road i think that's what they felt like they had to do basically yeah and now we've got to pick a new bishop of london so actually you still have to decide and let's be honest it can't be long before we finally get a new archbishop of york like i know he's been clinging on like i assume he's locked himself in his castle or whatever and refusing to come out

(0:30:25) No, I mean, he's been about. He has been about. I've seen things from him. I don't think he's going anywhere particularly soon. You're probably right. It's just that he should. He should be gone already. He's only got about three years left, though, anyway. He'll just see out his time.

(0:30:46) Yeah, I think he'll have another three years and he'll retire. I don't think... It's really tricky with Stephen Cottrell. I know, obviously, he was implicated to an extent with a lot of the stuff that was going on before. But he is considered, was considered, one of the more radical...

(0:31:06) bishops in his, you know, in his day. And I think that's just, the thing is, as soon as you get to bishop, but then especially as soon as you get to, you know, diocesan and then, you know, an archbishop, you have no choice but to go along with the establishment, you know, but to essentially become an accessory to some of the nastier stuff that goes on. And look, you know, as someone who knows a lot of people who, or some people who

(0:31:34) are very much within the inner workings of the Church of England who hold a lot of influence behind the scenes. The Church of England is a deeply, deeply political and nasty place when you start talking about this kind of thing. It's all backstabbing. It's all word of mouth. It's all being recommended by this person who has a clout and that kind of thing. So look,

(0:32:04) It is what it is. We can never expect the Church of England to be... The stuff that the Church of England sometimes does well is priests and people, congregants, members of the church on the ground doing good work. Sometimes they do some of that stuff really well. A lot of the time they don't. But if you want to find the good stuff, that's where you'll find it.

(0:32:29) I just want to briefly note that there are questions, shock horror, about Sam Lally's safeguarding record. There's a surprise. Bishop in the Church of England with questions about the safeguarding record. I genuinely think that part of what got him in is that the questions are less pronounced. I think they're not looking for a senior bishop without any questions about the safeguarding record because they won't find one. So...

(0:32:52) I genuinely think that was the conclusion, was, well, the less pronounced, but there are certainly questions, particularly relating to a priest in London who took his own life, very sadly, whilst under safeguarding investigation, which turned out basically to be pretty obviously homophobic, fear-mongering people.

(0:33:16) that was started by someone who is now in prison for embezzlement. So it's a bit of a mess, and there are clear safeguarding failings in that. You can read about that in various places. And I wanted to point out this video that people may have seen of Cathy Newman interviewing the Bishop of Winchester, Philip Mount Stephen, who is the lead bishop on media.

(0:33:42) I just wonder whether the church has learnt anything from the controversy of the last few years and the controversy over the handling of John Smythe, the abuse allegations against John Smythe and the way the church was accused of a cover-up over that.

(0:33:56) I think the church has been on a very significant process of learning and development over many years. But equally, I would say, and I always say that complacency is the enemy of good practice in all of this. So we need to continue to learn. We need to continue to improve. We must never be complacent and we should give.

(0:34:24) safeguarding the highest possible priority in the life of the church. So you're confident but not complacent that the new Archbishop will arrive in office without concerns about her past handling of safeguarding? I am confident that Sarah Mullally takes safeguarding with the utmost seriousness. And has done throughout her career?

(0:34:48) I think we're going to have to probably leave it there. We're going to get Philip off to another interview. Sorry to butter, it's a really tight schedule today, but hopefully that gives you enough. Can we just finish that answer? Because it will look very messy otherwise. Well, I think we're getting a lot of questions now, really needling into stuff about certain particularities. It's really actually not really fair to be asked for Bishop Philip. These are not things I'm competent to speak about, Cathy.

(0:35:14) And what might not be as obvious in the audio as is in the video is that the voice you hear essentially saying, we've got to shut down this interview, I'm not answering that question, is not the bishop himself, but is some sort of advisor or PR person or something who basically goes, oh yeah, we're not answering any questions about Sarah Lally's safeguarding record. But then...

(0:35:37) saying that it's not really fair to needle in to stuff about Sarah and particularities, which is insane. What are you talking about? She's the Archbishop of Canterbury. Given that when you're going through the discernment process to potentially trade to be a vicar in the Church of England...

(0:35:59) They leave no stone unturned. They ask you every question about your private life. So I think if you're going to be Archbishop of Canterbury, I think actually that's a pretty fair question to ask. But you know what it reminded me of? It reminded me so much of Alistair Campbell and Tony Blair, like we don't do God. That's what it reminded me of. Yeah, yeah. We don't do God is possibly a good Church of England bishop's motto, right? It says so much about the Church of England.

(0:36:30) that they employ spin doctors, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think there's obviously an attempt there. I don't think it's fully fledged it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them respond to questions about her safe early record with accusations of sexism.

(0:36:50) That I think is what's implied there is, well, we don't need to get into that. That's a bit unfair to ask about her stuff like that. And they didn't ask what sex position her children were conceived in. They asked about her record as a bishop. That is an entirely reasonable question. It's not personal. It is explicitly about her professional life. And actually...

(0:37:13) given the context of where the church has been what it's done what it hasn't done it's an incredibly important question you know did like kathy newman did a good job by asking that question yeah and obviously newman has been uh quite on it with this sort of stuff historically she's been one of the kind of main journalists looking into

(0:37:35) allegations of abuse and failure to respond to that, and is, to my understanding, generally seen as a good advocate by survivors themselves. But also, how did they not prepare for this question? Right. Do you know what I mean? If you are a spin doctor, that's the question you're seeing coming, right? Yeah.

(0:37:55) It's not a good sign, is it? No. So, look, has anything really changed? No, basically, is the answer, I think, actually. Like, you have a woman who is the archer to Canterbury, and she is breaking the glass ceiling, but, you know, she's still going to, by the looks of it, not be that different from the men that went before. So...

(0:38:17) Great stuff all around. So final thing on our docket to talk about is another person who is also very interested in the interfect section of Christianity and politics. Yeah, and actually what I do want to say before we get into this is this person's 17. I missed that. Yeah, you're right.

(0:38:43) Yeah, I'm not going for this person's jugular. Do you know what I mean? This is not what we're doing here. But we're talking about the article about this and the group that has been set up and why we don't necessarily think that's a brilliant idea. But what we're not doing is we're not saying... I actually don't want to discourage this person from exploring these ideas. I think it's a good thing that this person's interested in this stuff.

(0:39:12) We all did stupid stuff at 17. But I wanted to just say right at the top that we're not going after a child. Do you know what I mean? Yes, absolutely. So I'm not even going to name them, but this person has started a new group looking to promote Christian policy in the public sphere and influence the existing political parties and has set up something called Christian Democracy UK.

(0:39:39) Yes, which is apparently beyond left and right, which essentially means that it's a centrist think tank pressure group type thing, really. No, how dare you? That's not true. It's just beyond left and right, Adam. Come on. Well, I mean, to be fair, this person says...

(0:40:00) It's quoted as saying that they are, or someone says that they are the sensible centre. Which someone usually says before giving you the most right-wing opinion you've ever heard in your life. I think that's an important point, though, is that

(0:40:17) This person, I don't know anything about them, but this person may have really good intentions and that they want to. And often this is the way a lot of centrist liberals are thinking, that they want to bring people together. And there's something edifying about that. I get it. But ultimately, what ends up happening, of course, as we know very well on this podcast at this point,

(0:40:43) that centrists basically end up just sliding further to the right. And yeah, this will be no different. Yeah, absolutely. In the article, he describes Christian democracy as...

(0:41:01) a political ideology and a series of beliefs that blend Christian principles with modern democratic ideals. It's weaving that traditional Christianity into modern light without trying to set the clock back. It advocates for a balance between individual rights and social responsibility while emphasising traditional values and a social market economy.

(0:41:24) And I read that and went, oh, it's blue labour. Right. I'm with you now. We already have that. It's called blue labour and it sucks. Yeah. Let's talk about these traditional values. Yeah. And this is the thing, right, is that it's hard to know. But...

(0:41:46) There were trigger words in there, right, that just make you go, oh, yeah. And he does say generally the term often used is socially right and economically left. In this country, and I guess certainly in the Anglophone world,

(0:42:04) in anglophone christianity we have a term for this it's called radical orthodoxy yeah so so what this person is and it sucks yeah because it's radical orthodoxy is aligned with blue labor essentially yeah yeah yeah this is the christian wing of blue labor as we've discussed before yeah and and one of the biggest figures in that is your favorite ben

(0:42:23) Yes, yes, yes. John Milbank. John Milbank. The man, the myth, the legend. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the greatest Christian Twitter user of all time. Yeah. Yeah, just a man with a lot of degrees and pedigree and also a complete moron. It's a wonderful combination of life.

(0:42:49) And says a lot about the study of theology in this country that he's considered a serious theologian, not a general laughingstock. I think more people think he's a laughingstock than perhaps we often realise, though. It's just that he's given a platform and he's got positions and that kind of thing. But a lot of people that are not anything really close to as radical as we are think that he's a bit on the weird side. Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

(0:43:19) Going back to that kind of, you know, we joke about it was just being blue labour. And, you know, to some extent, actually, you are kind of increasingly getting that from Starmer, right? I think you'd maybe suggest that he's not economically left from...

(0:43:36) He's capitulated on a few things, hasn't he? Because he's so massively unpopular that he's got to start thinking about how he can try and grasp, claw back some of his position. And also I think he's perhaps keen to present himself as someone who is ending austerity. How much that is factually true, we can

(0:44:05) Do we need to do that? Yeah, sure. But that is the positioning, right? I mean, look, sorry, look, as someone who's currently trying to find somewhere to rent in a very expensive city, yeah, austerity's not over. Yeah, absolutely. But I think, you know, that whole, actually, we're looking for something socially right and economically left.

(0:44:34) it's often talked about as like the missing ingredient in British politics, right? No one's really offering that full-throated. And I think that's true to some extent. I think it's partially true because it doesn't make any sense as an ideological alignment. It's not ideologically consistent, is it? That's the thing, yeah. Whereas neoliberalism...

(0:44:55) kind of in your kind of more David Cameron form, there was a consistency to the idea of being economically right and socially liberal, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, it didn't work. It's not consistent in that sense, but yeah, sure. But like there was a sense of, you know, we allow people to, of all different backgrounds and situations to die under austerity, right? Like that was the...

(0:45:22) Well, all different backgrounds, Ben. Of course, the actual impact wasn't that way, but yeah. We're all in this together and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The rhetoric, at least, you know. And I think it was socially liberal, not socially left, but I just don't think there is an ideologically consistent economically right, or economically left, socially right. It just doesn't...

(0:45:47) doesn't really make any sense as a... Because ultimately what that amounts to is we want to help out certain groups, right? Like it doesn't... What does that actually look like in policy terms? How does that link... It doesn't make any sense. We want to help out certain groups and actively shit on other groups.

(0:46:08) And then what do we get to? Actually, ultimately, the logical extension of that is, well, we're just going to appear economically left while doubling down our shelves for conservatism. Well, you only have to turn the dial so far up before you just end up being a fascist, right? And I'm not accusing this person of being a fascist at all or people who say, you know, economically left but socially conservative. They're not all fascists. But the only consistent kind of

(0:46:39) ideology and you know to call it consistent is interesting but you know established perhaps ideology that gets anywhere close to that is is fascism and even within fascism it's only a small amount of seemingly economically left policies it's businesses marshaled for the the state isn't it for the for a fascist state it's not that the state is

(0:47:03) or that people are collectively administering the economic side of things, that the state owns all the business, or it's that business falls in line behind the fascist principle. And I guess what I was really interested in is the kind of reporting of this by the Church Times, where at no point do they go, so what do you mean by socially conservative?

(0:47:32) And I think... He's 17, Ben. Leave the kid alone. What's he going to do? Ask him a hard question and he's probably going to melt. But then... And here's what I say then. Why put him in your fucking newspaper? Actually, if you're saying that it's not appropriate to ask him questions, is this a cute story? Not really. What it is, is you're asking me to take this child's political opinion seriously and

(0:48:02) Why? I think you're being very mean and discouraging to this kid, right? I think crack on. I just don't think it should be in a newspaper. Maybe it should be in, like, I don't know, the Dorset Herald or whatever. Sure, yeah, yeah. But why publish it in the Church Times, particularly if you're not going to interrogate, you know. Well, they publish the shit I write, Ben. Yeah.

(0:48:30) And it seems like there may be, I don't know, the whole socially conservative, economically left thing is something that mainstream papers have been pushing as well, without a whole lot of purchase, really. And I don't know, I just...

(0:48:51) It feels like the church times almost went well. We better be doing that as well. I do think there's a sizable cohort of people in this country who, you know, when you ask them what they want, economically speaking, they're going to be broadly kind of old labor, right? They're going to want a robust welfare state, like without necessarily taking care of people they consider to be scroungers or whatever. But they want an NHS and, you know, they want...

(0:49:19) you know, the basics of things to be taken care of like that. But they also want to shit on trans people. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's your suspicion, right, is that what this means ultimately is I don't like gay people, I don't like trans people, like I wish I saw less people of colour, you know, all this sort of stuff, right? Yeah, yeah. And it'll be, especially with this kind of group, it'll be things like abortion as well, I should think.

(0:49:46) Yeah, yeah. And I get it because when I was 17, I was quite politically engaged in the sense I found it interesting and I wanted to learn more, but I knew precisely Dick.

(0:50:01) i knew nothing um and which is why i at the time would have described myself as a social liberal probably not too far from what this guy identifies as um obviously i didn't stay there but my because i had a you know i was always concerned about

(0:50:23) social justice right I cared about people's lives and and and I can see why people end up in that kind of position holding those kinds of politics when that is what they're concerned about now ultimately for me I did more digging around that kind of thing and I found that I became a lot more left-wing and

(0:50:46) both socially and economically than I had previously been. And look, in all honesty, I would encourage this guy to keep reading, to keep digging, because I think probably the way he's approaching things might not be the worst thing in the world. At 17, it's good that he's interested in this stuff. I just think...

(0:51:16) Be careful with doing things like establishing groups like this, because these things can grow out of control and end up being something that later on down the line, you might not be too proud to say you found it.

(0:51:30) Yeah. So my advice to him is stop being involved in the political parties and instead keep researching, keep learning, go drink cider in a park and have unrequited romances that feel like the end of the world. You are 17 years old. This is your God-given right. And if you have any musical talent at all, go start a garage rock band and just have fun doing that. These are the things you should do as a teenager. Not a worship band, Ben. Absolutely not.

(0:51:59) What about a drunk worship band, Ben? How do you feel about that? Look, it's better than a sober one, but...

(0:52:07) So I was going to say this guy should go and join a Food Not Bombs group and hang out with anarchists. But, you know, those things are... No, no, no. You don't want to be exposed to anarchism at that age. No, it could end up bad as well. Yeah, exactly. I just genuinely think you need to be drinking cider in a park and thinking about some other person your own age who you believe is your soulmate and doesn't know you exist. Like...

(0:52:32) Yeah, maybe, but actually, no, I'm going to push back on the whole Food Not Bombs thing, because I think... That's the bit you take an exception to. Yeah, because... Yeah, cider in a park, underage drinking, I'm fine with, but you can't be nasty to anarchists. Like, what I will say is, not necessarily just anarchists, but, like, getting involved, doing voluntary work...

(0:52:56) that actually where I actually engaged with people who, and look, I came from a place where at times we were really needy as well. Right. But engaging with people who are at the margins of society, who are, who need your help. Yeah.

(0:53:13) I think was actually completely life-changing for me. It really colored the way I saw society and led me to go on that political journey. So I would say, whether it's a food, not bombs group, whether it's even just something less radical, like a winter shelter or something, that's the political engagement that I think I would encourage a guy like this to get involved with.

(0:53:43) Yeah, no, I do agree with that. And you can do that and then drink cider in the park afterwards. So it's all fine. Or even before. Yeah, yeah.

(0:53:54) I think that probably just about makes up an episode of Bread and Rosaries. We were nasty to Sarah Manali, and now we've been nasty to a 17-year-old. To a child, Ben. A child. Are we going to have to do another one of those episodes where I make you be positive just to even things out? Because you love doing that. Yeah.

(0:54:15) I was very positive about food, not bombs, okay? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I'll give you that. Arguably, the episode where we bullied multiple people is the most positive you've been on this podcast for some time. Look, Ben, I hate bullies, right? So I'm going to bite back, okay?

(0:54:30) Right. That will do us for today. Thank you very much for listening, everyone. And thank you for joining us. Please, if you want to get in touch with us, we love hearing from people. Breadandrosaries.com has all of our contact details on. Get involved.

(0:54:46) talking to us about things you are interested in, things you want to learn more about, questions, comments, pushback, all those sorts of things. We would love to hear from people. If you want to chuck us some pennies to support the hosting costs, there's a Patreon on there as well.

(0:55:03) adam where in the world can people find you you can find me most places at commie x i a n uh i also have an article coming out soon in shibboleth magazine so you can grab a copy of that when it comes out soon enough um and yeah you can actually look on the bread and rosaries website and find some of the other stuff i've written as well if you like

(0:55:22) Yeah. If you want to get a hold of the Shivaleth magazine, I think it's shivalethmag.com. We will link it in the show notes. Well worth getting our subscription for, I would say. There is good stuff as well as Adam's writing in there. Now you're bullying me. Yeah, well, that's just about a dozen of the episode. I've ticked off everyone I wanted to bully on my list. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you for joining me, Adam. I will see you next time. Bye, everyone. See you later.